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I am not an expert on fluff so does anyone know how many orks or human soldiers it would take to match a smurf?

Are the humans Guardsmen? Chaos Cultists? Bog standard civilians? You need to be more specific.

It's very situational.
E.g. Who (if anyone) is armed? What range?

Sorry say standard guardsmen

Depends on how stoned the person writing the fluff is.

Some writers would have you believe that one marine is unkillable by a million orks/guardsmen, others put the ratio a bit more reasonably.

about 10 guardsmen to one marine, on open ground, with usual weapons would be my guess.

Marine has a bolter

Guardsmen have lasguns.

(if the guardsmen brought a decent gun,like a Melta, then the ratio gets a little closer

"Give me a hundred Space Marines, or in failing that, give me a thousand other troops."
- Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

This citation is from a GW book. Note, however, that the studio representation is just one of many different interpretations. In your excursion through the available material about Warhammer 40.000, including the various novels and computer games, you will notice that the "power ratio" will vary wildly, all depending on who writes the product in question and whether the Space Marines are protagonists, antagonists, or bystanders. As per the people writing the actual material, this discrepancy and inconsistency is quite intentional, as you are supposed to pick what you like and disregard what you don't. It's all a matter of perception and preferences.

So, in short, it takes as many Orks or Guardsmen to match a "Smurf" as you want.

@Ascalam: I'd also factor the Guardsmen's planet of origin into the mix. Clearly, a squad Cadian Shock Troopers is going to stand a much better chance against a Space marine then a squad from Nameless Agri-World #7784192.

I'd argue that a single Kasrkin could get the job done about half the time. Think of the SAS or SEALs with plate armor and a gun that can burn a whole through a couple inches of ceremite. I'll take that wager.

In the official rulebook (and/or the SM codex) it states a Space Marine can best 100+ normal men in hand to hand combat at once.

In Helsreach it was considered a pretty stout number for one of the BT's to have killed 5-6 Orks in hand to hand combat before being killed.

I'm assuming that a SM vs CSM would be a 1 on 1 type of deal. Maybe a hero or chapter master can kill a few CSM's in hand to hand before being killed.

IronSnake wrote:In the official rulebook (and/or the SM codex) it states a Space Marine can best 100+ normal men in hand to hand combat at once.

Simultaneously? How would they even reach him?

Unless we're assuming that people line up and charge the Marine whenever he's throwing a few guys off the playing field. But in that case, you could scale that number up into the thousands and more, for the only way for a Marine to go down in a box-fight with a non-Marine is by exhaustion after days of continuous fighting. Even if someone manages to poke out his eyes, I think he'd fight on blindly.

Fortunately, Guardsmen in the 41st Millennium are carrying lasguns. Much more effective against Astartes.

(out of interest, which book exactly was this? I've read both the rulebook and the SM 'dex but don't recall this)

I'm pretty sure it's in the SM Codex. Capable of besting 100 men in combat. Not really surprising really. Think of a 8 foot tall man bigger than any body builder you've ever seen or can imagine that weighs the same as a gorilla. Ferocious and fearless in combat.

One swipe of the arm and a few kicks will have a dozen or more men bloodied and battered.

IronSnake wrote:Think of a 8 foot tall man [...]

7 feet. At least if you go by GW's writing.

But you're right, it's not surprising - even in the usually way more conservative studio material, a Marine's physical strength is stressed a lot. I vaguely recall something about crushing a man's skull with their bare hands. Or their impressive bite. Not to mention the acid spit. And sometimes they even start eating you. Scary.

That said, there was still Colonel Straken who strangled a CSM Lord to death. Then again, surprise was on his side ... and he had a vine, so maybe this technically doesn't count as pure hand-to-hand anymore.

And thanks for the hint, will take another look at the SM 'dex next time I get my hands on it! Only skimmed through it, was disappointed by how little fluff the books actually have these days. I mean, come on - things such as those copypasted Mini-Marines to represent a full company are really just filler, aren't they? "We're out of ideas for text, so here's a hundred little Marines in rows of five." And there was so much stuff from older codices they could have put there.

7'6" I thought was the average height of a SM. Some can be as tall as 8' +? Or possibly 8' is the average height in armor. 7'+ without.

Regardless... a Space Marine even without his power armor is a ferocious beast. Hardly human at that point. I'll go home and see where it states "100 normal men in combat". I'm sure I goofed the exact quote. I'll post it tomorrow.

The newest codex, I thought, had some good stories. But yeah listing out the entire second company was kind of silly. Rows upon rows of the SM painter program figures. lol

Coolyo294 wrote:@Ascalam: I'd also factor the Guardsmen's planet of origin into the mix. Clearly, a squad Cadian Shock Troopers is going to stand a much better chance against a Space marine then a squad from Nameless Agri-World #7784192.

True enough I was going for a general rule of thumb.

The Marine's chapter makes a differece also. A Flesh Tearer is probably more badass than a Rainbow Warrior

IronSnake wrote:7'6" I thought was the average height of a SM. Some can be as tall as 8' +? Or possibly 8' is the average height in armor. 7'+ without.

7 to maybe 7.5, in armour. At least according to the guy who designed them (-> Jes Goodwin).

He actually comments on this in the 5th GW Podcast (you can listen to it on the company homepage) and jokes about how they are treated in licensed fiction, stating they seem to get bigger and bigger with every book.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=4&aId=9400003&start=5&multiPageMode=true
I also had a photo of him in front of a "lifesize Marine" drawing he did for the Inquisitor RPG, complete with height scale. I can search through my folders and upload it again, in case you're interested.

Not that this is something you'd have to stick to, though. If you prefer the height given in some novel or so, go for it. I just keep pointing this out because I think it's funny how so many people go for a higher number, and to show the discrepancies between studio and licensed material. Basically, to raise awareness that there exists a discrepancy in the first place, for a lot of people still think it's all supposed to fit together.
Anyhow, the 7-7.5 feet was truly only given as the average, so even if one would want to stick to GW's version, you'd still have Marines exceeding that. Conversely, of course, this also means that some Marines will be smaller than 7 feet. Personally, I'd say this also depends on the worlds the Chapter recruits its Neophytes from, and as such you may also have entire Chapters whose Marines are on average somewhat larger than Astartes standards, whereas other Chapters are on average smaller.

IronSnake wrote:The newest codex, I thought, had some good stories.

I actually like the stories bit! Well, it wasn't fully-fledged stories (compared to the earlier codices), but it's still cool stuff. Still, I am sorely missing the technical data and schematics and cross-sections that the earlier books had. May be intentional, though; GW apparently likes things to be muddied, so that people are free to come up with their own ideas.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:I am not an expert on fluff so does anyone know how many orks or human soldiers it would take to match a smurf?

To match a smurf?
Those blue little creaters with condoms on their head?
0,0001 civilian.

Lynata wrote:

IronSnake wrote:7'6" I thought was the average height of a SM. Some can be as tall as 8' +? Or possibly 8' is the average height in armor. 7'+ without.

7 to maybe 7.5, in armour. At least according to the guy who designed them (-> Jes Goodwin).

He actually comments on this in the 5th GW Podcast (you can listen to it on the company homepage) and jokes about how they are treated in licensed fiction, stating they seem to get bigger and bigger with every book.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=4&aId=9400003&start=5&multiPageMode=true
I also had a photo of him in front of a "lifesize Marine" drawing he did for the Inquisitor RPG, complete with height scale. I can search through my folders and upload it again, in case you're interested.

Not that this is something you'd have to stick to, though. If you prefer the height given in some novel or so, go for it. I just keep pointing this out because I think it's funny how so many people go for a higher number, and to show the discrepancies between studio and licensed material. Basically, to raise awareness that there exists a discrepancy in the first place, for a lot of people still think it's all supposed to fit together.
Anyhow, the 7-7.5 feet was truly only given as the average, so even if one would want to stick to GW's version, you'd still have Marines exceeding that. Conversely, of course, this also means that some Marines will be smaller than 7 feet. Personally, I'd say this also depends on the worlds the Chapter recruits its Neophytes from, and as such you may also have entire Chapters whose Marines are on average somewhat larger than Astartes standards, whereas other Chapters are on average smaller.

IronSnake wrote:The newest codex, I thought, had some good stories.

I actually like the stories bit! Well, it wasn't fully-fledged stories (compared to the earlier codices), but it's still cool stuff. Still, I am sorely missing the technical data and schematics and cross-sections that the earlier books had. May be intentional, though; GW apparently likes things to be muddied, so that people are free to come up with their own ideas.

Ah interesting stuff. I guess it's safe to say then that 7' is average. One whole foot taller than the average human male doesn't seem as spectacular though. lol In Brothers of the Snake Priad thinks to himself that the humans see them all as the same, as clones. He makes a mental note how much taller some of his men are and then there was one SM who was "short".

I think you're spot on in regard to the planet of recruitment and prior genetics. I'll give that a watch sometime, thanks for the link. And I went and forgot to look up the specific entry last night. I'll try again tonight.

IronSnake wrote:One whole foot taller than the average human male doesn't seem as spectacular though.

Yep - Jes Goodwin points out an interesting and very valid bit, though. With Space Marines, "it's not about the height, not at all. It's about how broad they are. They're just absolutely massive." I think a lot of people, including novel authors, focus on height too much. Jes went on to mention those old cartoons where Daffy Duck jumps through a wall etc, and when a Space Marine did that you'd just have one huge hole there. It's a pretty cool podcast, even though his voice is somewhat slow. Very relaxing tho.

I'll have to give it a listen soon.

And yeah I've seen the SM chart as compared to a normal man, and then a current day basketball player. Completely massive through the chest and shoulders. Like a gorilla.

or an Ork

Mariens are humanity's attempt at making orks, only ones that stand up straight

Marines are therefore Uruk-Hai

Ascalam wrote:or an Ork

Mariens are humanity's attempt at making orks, only ones that stand up straight

Marines are therefore Uruk-Hai

'Cept dey ain't az 'ard cuz dey ain't green an' propa like a reel ork!

Dam' Roight!