Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This isn't a rules question, or a proposed rule so I think the thread can go here. I was just wondering why they made it so you can't shoot into units locked in combat.

I play the Tau and my friend plays Ork. I always thought the Tau were supposed to be on the up and up with their shooting skills. I've never understood why they had a rule that seems to gimp me. We don't have a lot of troops so maybe I just get screwed that way, either way it stinks.

So I was wondering if it was ever different. If so, was the old way just too strong for shooting armies?

On a side note I'll finally get to go to a WH40k game at my local comic shop on the 11th. So I'm hoping it'll be a lot of fun!

Simplicity. You can check the proposed rules forum for peoples' repeated attempts to make rules allowing that, and it's never as easy as anyone thinks.

For example, 'if you miss, you hit one of your models.' Sounds good off the cuff, but what about when it's one termie locked in battle with 30 hormagaunts?

As you can see if you look, multiple solutions have been proposed for how to do this, but none of them ever ended up being something that looked like it'd be worth implementing into a game.

Back in 2nd ed. you could fire into CC. For every shot you took you had a 50/50 chance of hitting your own troops. I once had a Terminator killed by a bolt pistol from my own Standard Bearer that way. It sucked......

Get some buddies to let you try out some house rules on the topic. I did, and was shocked at how unfair it got for melee oriented armies. I agree it's completely unrealistic for the Imperial Guard to hold their fire because one trooper is still locked in combat with the rampaging horde of twenty Tyranids, but sometimes realism has to take a backseat to game balance. There's many more examples. As it is, the Grey Knights Codex finally came out with an Inquisitor who can drop blasts on his own people, finally allowing the Imperium to use the old "the ends justify the means" tactic.

That's the only method I know of to shoot into combat. (You can always drop a blast marker on a nearby enemy unit and hope it scatters onto the assault.) As far as alternative methods of turning an assault back into a shooting gallery, there's that one Inquisitor. Otherwise, vanilla Space Marines can always opt to fail a morale check and run from combat so they can shoot the crap out of their opponents on the next turn. The worst thing that happens is you get caught and suffer some No Retreat! rolls. Librarians can Gate of Infinity out of assault too. Harlequins used to be able to backflip out of assault, but I don't know if they can do that anymore. I'm really only familiar with Imperials, so you'd have to ask other players about their strategies. I know the Deceiver used to be able to do something similar to the Harlequins backflip, but I don't think the C'Tan fragments can do that anymore.

Hope this helps. If nothing else, I will happily comiserate with you, since I too find myself losing many a game, wondering why my Marines don't just gun the entire melee down and then pour one out for their fallen homie. If it would secure victory, I'm sure it's what he would have wanted.

If your buddy was in a fistfight with someone, would you try to shoot at the badguy and hope you miss your friend? People generally won't shoot if it will risk harming friendlies.

From a rules perspective, it makes assault armies viable and keeps things simple.

how about some other scenario?

lets say its a 3 way battle (1 vs 1 vs 1) or any variation on it.

ex: im IG with my opponents being lets say Orks and Chaos SM. they have a large group begin meleeing each other, and im not allowed to drop a Earth Shaker shell on their heads as they kill each other dispite the fact both sides in the melee are my enemy? i've alway been confused about that.

i can understand how the many attempts helping frendily units in melee by shooting the enemy have not worked (and have annalized the concept myself and came to the same conclusion, its easier said then done and it doesn't work out in the end.)
but the above scenario (which i have encountered multiple tiems in my in-house battles) not being able to shoot into the meleeing enemy confused me.
Maybe the seperate opponents thing isn't common outside in-house battles but i still think if my enemys are meleeing each other i should be able to blast them into oblivion and drop as much ordinance on their heads as I please as they try to kill each other in melee.

Who in the right mind would give up sucha shooting gallery if your foes start standing still and beat on each other? confusing rules.

Brother SRM wrote:If your buddy was in a fistfight with someone, would you try to shoot at the badguy and hope you miss your friend? People generally won't shoot if it will risk harming friendlies.

From a rules perspective, it makes assault armies viable and keeps things simple.

If my friend was in Power armor fighting 10 Bugs, you bet you sweet arse I am shooting into that combat!

Engine of War wrote:how about some other scenario?

lets say its a 3 way battle (1 vs 1 vs 1) or any variation on it.

ex: im IG with my opponents being lets say Orks and Chaos SM. they have a large group begin meleeing each other, and im not allowed to drop a Earth Shaker shell on their heads as they kill each other dispite the fact both sides in the melee are my enemy? i've alway been confused about that.

Actually there are no rules to govern 3 way battles so you have to make them up as you go along.

In the case of two enemies fighting there should be no issue targeting enemy models in CC with other enemies.

But there are no rules to govern 3 way battles so you have to house rule it.

DeathReaper wrote:

Engine of War wrote:how about some other scenario?

lets say its a 3 way battle (1 vs 1 vs 1) or any variation on it.

ex: im IG with my opponents being lets say Orks and Chaos SM. they have a large group begin meleeing each other, and im not allowed to drop a Earth Shaker shell on their heads as they kill each other dispite the fact both sides in the melee are my enemy? i've alway been confused about that.

Actually there are no rules to govern 3 way battles so you have to make them up as you go along.

In the case of two enemies fighting there should be no issue targeting enemy models in CC with other enemies.

But there are no rules to govern 3 way battles so you have to house rule it.

Actually there are, if you look at p. 273 of the BRB, they outline rules that may work for a 1v1v1 scenario... Basically, provided your own troops are not in CC with the guys you are shooting at you shoot as normal... you then take all Hits and designate a portion of the fight (in the orks v. chaos example) say the orks, then roll again. On a 4+ those hit the orks, and the rest hit the Chaos guys. and wounds are resolved as normal

Those rules are only for that 1v1v1 scenario, if you are playing a regular mission you have to house rule a lot of things.

But as I said shooting into a CC that only involves enemies should not be a problem.

Just do the same thing? Take all hits, 4+ hits the enemy.

Remains static though despite the amount of models involved in the combat. But to really fix it to take that into account there would likely have to be a table.

Nah go even simpler, hits hit target, misses hit own guys, both units get cover of 3+, modified +1 or -1 for bring outnumbered 2 to 1 or more.

Jack

Anubis_513 wrote:Back in 2nd ed. you could fire into CC. For every shot you took you had a 50/50 chance of hitting your own troops. I once had a Terminator killed by a bolt pistol from my own Standard Bearer that way. It sucked......

Then don't shoot in close combat. If your terminators are locked into close combat and you rapid fire plasma guns into it, whose fault is it if they die?
50/50 chance is simple and works. If you don't want your guys to get hit, don't shoot into CC. It's still better than now.
Ordinance and templates especially should be able to do it. It's a serious nerf for firepower armies.

So what happens then if you shoot a template weapon that scatters on top of your units in CC with the enemy?

AtariAssasin wrote:So what happens then if you shoot a template weapon that scatters on top of your units in CC with the enemy?

You allocate that just as you would a template in any other situation. X guys get hit, Y enemy guys get hit, roll to wound etc.