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Hi, I have a dire avengers squad with an Exarch. Now I love this squad and having bladestorm, but unfortunately this exarch is armed with a diresword/pistol combo, which I find completely worthless. His str 3 never ever wounds anything in close combat anyway and it's a pretty fail instant death mechanism. I'd much rather have that awesome assault 4 gun but I didn't have any to model it with. So I saw an exarch with a squad on ebay. The picture looked like it had a big gun behind it...

But it turned out to be a sword. Curses. So now I'm trapped with two useless exarches and 11 dire avengers. I really just want the cannon exarch and will continue keeping my eye out, but I was wondering if Asurmen is any good as I'm sure I could model this old exarch as him pretty easily. I know none of the phoenix lords are that hot, but my friends are fairly casual anyway so a few average-bad choices aren't too big of a deal. He looks overcosted but at least reasonably "good" but I have no idea.

This is not a WAAC list. It's just a "Is he sort of good or so abysmal that he's not even worth taking in apocalpyse"

He is a decent enough addition to your army. Taking him saves you some points in a DA squad as you don't have to buy the exarch powers. Also, it gives you a bit of CC oopmh and a place to take ablative wounds. There are better Phoenix lord options, but he's definitely not bad for friendly games.

I have taken Asurmen to tournaments and placed well with him and Eldrad. The thing you have to remember about him is how much he can stand up to in combat.

First of all, he is an EW with a 2+/4++ and he has Defend. So, if he and his unit assaults, the enemy is already at a -1 attack disadvantage for the entire unit. That is huge. Not to mention you couple that with a Bladestorm and you're putting out some serious hurt.

So, you have Asurmen + a unit of Dire Avengers + an Exarch with a powershield and then hit them with Guide and Fortune and you have a deathstar that no one sees coming. This is a unit that can fire 32 shots with re-rolls, then (if the enemy is Doomed), 28ish hits with re-rolls to wound. Finally, you assault and you have an IC with a re-rollable 2+/4++ and an entire unit with re-rollable 4+/5++.

Many of my enemies have disregarded that unit, much to their dismay.

In addition, one of the Eldar players at my FLGS (who also works there) tells me that the effects of defend from Asurmen and the exarch are cumulative. So unless they get charged by some CC specialists, chances are there won't be that many attacks coming at them.

Dheneb wrote:In addition, one of the Eldar players at my FLGS (who also works there) tells me that the effects of defend from Asurmen and the exarch are cumulative. So unless they get charged by some CC specialists, chances are there won't be that many attacks coming at them.

This is incorrect. He is trying to pull a fast one. The Defend from the Exarch and the Defend from Asurmen are the same rule. They both simply say "Enemy models directing their attacks toward the Exarch's squad lose one attack for that Assault phase."

There is no reason to think that multiple sources of this rule would make it count twice.

PL's are too expensive for what they can achieve and Asurmen, the most expensive of them, is no exception. If you want him for semi-competitive play, go for it. But he has no place in a competitive force.

Short answer is yes, if you've an open HQ slot and a unit of DA to plug him into.

Barring point costs, which is the only real downfall of the PL's, he's an excellent force multipler for the DA. You sure as hells better play aggressively with that particular unit, or otherwise your wasting his benefits; in-built exarch powers, his superior statline (which is the only place the DA's exarch fails is his str) and you have a super-flexible Eldar 'tank' unit that takes some serious focus to get rid of. It's the only troop unit outside of the old Avatar-Guardian combo that can stick around in melee decently (well, 10man wraithguard, too) and is yet potent enough to reliably gun most non-specialized infrantry down (thinking of certain fast assault oriented troops hitting you before you can target them). Not a particular fan of ol' Asurmen, but he also only one of three PL that shoots to kill. Think of the combo as your main assault unit (spear-heading thru enemy lines and you probably have the best use for it).

I guess mainly, if this Guy isn't leading the charge, he at least better be plugging holes in your lines. Not a good investment otherwise.

As Puma has said; he's very good as a model. Then again, as Wuestenfux said, he's also very expensive.

Another problem is he's a CC machine (largely) that is placed in a shooty squad (Dire Avengers).
He's very powerful, but personally I'd advise running him with a close-combat unit, such as Harlies, or a unit that can do both close combat or ranged (e.g. Seer Council). Either of which are also likely to be fortuned...

I'd say his main problems are his price and that he competes with Farseers, Eldrad and the Avatar.

My problem with Asuremen is that even among the "fun" choices he falls short.

Lets look at him here and compare him to other things.

Asuremen- the only phoenix lord with an invulnerable save. His downside is that hes only got a s4 power weapon, and he doesn't have a pistol. So hes re rolling to hit, and can potentially cause instant death but that can't be counted on since most multi wound monsters are ld 10. Overall his weapon is slightly worse than a lightning claw against space marines, since its better to re roll a 4+ to wound then a 3+ to hit.

Jain Zar- initiative 10 and strength 7 power weapon attacks on the charge. Shoots 3 s5 ap 2 shots from her triskele.

Karandaras- can infiltrate out of LOS and get a first turn charge with his fleet. Can choose between 6 power fist attacks (s8 power weapon) or 6 chain sword attacks (s5 initative 7) depending on his opponents. He also has plasma grenades so only him and Jain Zar can actually charge something in cover.

Fuegan- s5 Monstrous creature attacks. Not to mention impossibly accurate with his fire pike.

Maugan Ra- Ballistic Skill 7 36 inch range Assault Cannon... and he is still s6 in assault from his executioner.

Overall compared to the other pheonix lords (except poor Baharroth) Asurman just seems very lackluster. How much is that 4+ worth to you compared to the raw offensive powers the other lords can bring to the table?

Also don't forget prince Yriel. He doesn't get Eternal Warrior or a 2+ armor save, but hes initiative 7, and the spear of twilight is a great weapon. He also has his Eye of Wrath which can obliterate an entire squad of space marines in a single turn- before halbreds can swing!

I just find Asurman underwhelming compared to other close combat HQs available in the Codex. He lacks the raw power of Karandaras and Jain Zar, and Maugen Ra and Feugan actually have guns worth writing home about.

If it helps, shimmershield/defend exarchs are, in my opinion, the way to go. Plus, they have a power sword, so you can use your existing model.

The dual cats give you 3 more shots than just the pistol. 3 s4 shots can be had for easier by taking 2 more dire avengers if you really want more firepower. On the other hand, the 5++ save in cc (with fortune especially) and defend bring units like THSS termies to their knees.

Unreg1stered wrote:Hi, I have a dire avengers squad with an Exarch. Now I love this squad and having bladestorm, but unfortunately this exarch is armed with a diresword/pistol combo, which I find completely worthless. His str 3 never ever wounds anything in close combat anyway and it's a pretty fail instant death mechanism. I'd much rather have that awesome assault 4 gun but I didn't have any to model it with. So I saw an exarch with a squad on ebay. The picture looked like it had a big gun behind it..."

Have you thought of using a shimmershield and power sword with defend?
STR 3 may be crap, but with DOOM, you can wound 55% of the time vs T4. If you Fortune you avengers, in assault they have a 55% invuln save. That kind of a squad is a great tarpit unit, albeit and expensive one.

Unreg1stered wrote:This is not a WAAC list. It's just a "Is he sort of good or so abysmal that he's not even worth taking in apocalpyse"

Overall....hes not worth it. Take Eldrad instead.

Yes, he is expensive. But that's okay, you get quite some stuff for that. If you can put all of it to use he is reasonably priced. If you only keep him in a unit of DA all game and never go into assault he is overpriced. The main problem is, as already said, that you usually only go into assault with DA to clean up a few remains, but not to deal severe damage to an intact unit. However, Asurmen is a monster in cc and if you have problems in an area with terminators or a cc heavy character model you will be happy to have him.

IME, Asurmen's biggest limitation is that he can never do better than Str4.

Fortune can keep him alive for an insanely long time, and he gets a lot of hits, but he can't really dish out any damage and opponents with T5+ will usually eventually get him.

Maugan Ra, Karandas and Jain Zar with their higher str attacks are much better in assault against the kinds of things Phoenix Lords need to take on for them to be worthwhile. I've never used Fuegan, but even he has str5.

His biggest problem is that is favoured target is anything the rest of the eldar force already kill very well for less points.

Karandras and fuegan can fight armour or infantry while Jainzar and maugaun ran can at least go light vehicles

Asurmen is to expensive for what can generally be accomplished by the same points in dire avengers