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Heyy guys, first let me explain the title:

Every single Eldar list I see is becoming very much the same; hashed-out Fire Dragons. And I hate Fire Dragons.

So this list, while perhaps not as competitive as other Eldar lists, is an attempt to move away from this idea and yet still retain some viability.

Here we go:

1. Farseer - 188pts.
w/ Singing Spear, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Eldar Jetbike, Fortune, Doom.

2. Farseer - 173pts.
w/ Singing Spear, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Eldar Jetbike, Fortune, Doom.

3. Guardian Squad - 140pts.
w/ Brightlance, Warlock; Embolden, Singing Spear

• Wave Serpent - 135pts.
w/ TL-Scatter Lasers, Vectored Engines

4. Guardian Squad - 140pts.
w/ Brightlance, Warlock; Embolden, Singing Spear

• Wave Serpent - 135pts.
w/ TL-Scatter Lasers, Vectored Engines

5. Guardian Jetbike Squadron - 205pts.
w/ 6 members, 2 Shuriken Cannons, Warlock; Embolden, Singing Spear

6. Guardian Jetbike Squadron - 205pts.
w/ 6 members, 2 Shuriken Cannons, Warlock; Embolden, Singing Spear

7. Vyper Squadron - 210pts.
w/ 3 Vypers, 3 Star Cannons

8. Vyper Squadron - 210pts.
w/ 3 Vypers, 3 Star Cannons

Total = 1747pts.

I realise I'm taking possibly the most fragile things in the Eldar army and my tactics behind this list are largely theoretical.

The one thing I'm definately going to do is exploit my speed. With the exception of Dark Eldar, I don't believe that anything is fast enough to out-speed this list. I think this'll prove essential, as I'll need to pick and choose my battles and really have my target priority in check.

So Dakka, what's your opinion?

Iranna.

I like it. However, i'm a tad concerned at the anti-horde aspect. Also, the bright lances on a BS3 unit might be a little interesting. Have you considered Storm Guardians? Wacking in Stormies with twin Flamers, a Lock w/Destructor and a Spear for anti-armour lends 3x templates for close encounters (and comes in 10 points cheaper).

Oh and i'm presuming you're attaching those Jet-Seers to the Jetbike squads? If so, you'll have an 8 man unit with LD10, so you could change your Lock powers in that case with some comfort.

So suggestions?

1. Swap for Stormies w/2x Flamers and Destro-Lock w/Spear
2. Give Wave Serpents TL-Bright Lances (makes their shots count and they don't have to muck about deploying to fire)
3. Set up one group of Vypers with Scatter Lasers to handle horde units - This also gives you points to throw down "Guide" on a Seer if you fancy 12 shots of SL fire hitting bang on

Also, (and this is a big wallet pincher) have you considered Hornets? BS4, AV11, not open topped and can let tear with a torrent of fire (all weapons at cruising). They come in at more than Vypers, but not by much. See below as an example;

HQ:

Jetseer - Spear, RoWarding, Spirit Stones, Jetbike, Fortune, Doom
Jetseer - Spear, Spirit Stones, Jetbike, Fortune, Guide

Troops:

Guardian Jetbikes - 6 - 2x S.Cannon, Jetlock w/Spear, Destructor
Guardian Jetbikes - 6 - 2x S.Cannon, Jetlock w/Spear, Destructor

Guardian Stormies - 10 - 1x Fusion Gun, 1x Flamer, Warlock w/Spear, Destructor : Mounted in Serpent with TL-Bright Lances
Guardian Stormies - 10 - 1x Fusion Gun, 1x Flamer, Warlock w/Spear, Destructor : Mounted in Serpent with TL-Bright Lances

Fast Attack:

Vypers - 3 - Scatter Lasers

Horners - 3 - Scatter Laser / EML (each)

Comes in with 14 points to spare... hope this is kinda useful.

Iranna wrote:
3. Guardian Squad - 140pts.
w/ Brightlance, Warlock; Embolden, Singing Spear

• Wave Serpent - 135pts.
w/ TL- Scatter Lasers, Vectored Engines

7. Vyper Squadron - 210pts.
w/ 3 Vypers, 3 Star Cannons

A few things I've noticed. Definitely swap the bright lances and scatter lasers. You are relying on those bright lances and singing spears where normally you would be using fire dragons. You want them to be twin linked where possible. The Scatter Lasers are better on the guardians where the low BS is less of a huge deal. amoratized over 4 shots. If you are going to take a singing spear on the Warlock might as well take 2 fusion gun Storm Guardians. Same range as the spear and better than a lance when its in range. The only reason you'd want Guardian Defenders is to drop them off far away from the enemy and plink away with the heavy weapon. Storm Guardians are better up close.

Also why vectored engines? 20 points for what they give you is not worth it. You are better off with spirit stones which can come into play more than just when you move flat out, or Star Engines which actually increase the range you can flat out. I really just don't understand why you would want to take vectored engines.

I'm also not really feeling the vypers. For just a few more points you could be taking a holofalcon with a star cannon and a DAVU. That would give you more scoring units (more the merrier) and still bring a lot of ap2, as well as more s8 which helps when you don't take any dragons.




@Morachi psychic tests are a leadership test. Which means he can re roll failed psychic tests with embolden. Check the official GW FAQ

Akaean, re; the Embolden comment - handy. Just felt that Destructor would keep horde stuff at bay incase it gets too close. Hence the logic for also having one Flamer/Fusion Gun available in Storm squads (Fusion Gun + Spear and Destructor + Flamer... balanced out). Makes the units very versatile.

Morachi wrote:I like it. However, i'm a tad concerned at the anti-horde aspect. Also, the bright lances on a BS3 unit might be a little interesting. Have you considered Storm Guardians? Wacking in Stormies with twin Flamers, a Lock w/Destructor and a Spear for anti-armour lends 3x templates for close encounters (and comes in 10 points cheaper).

Oh and i'm presuming you're attaching those Jet-Seers to the Jetbike squads? If so, you'll have an 8 man unit with LD10, so you could change your Lock powers in that case with some comfort.

So suggestions?

1. Swap for Stormies w/2x Flamers and Destro-Lock w/Spear
2. Give Wave Serpents TL-Bright Lances (makes their shots count and they don't have to muck about deploying to fire)
3. Set up one group of Vypers with Scatter Lasers to handle horde units - This also gives you points to throw down "Guide" on a Seer if you fancy 12 shots of SL fire hitting bang on

Also, (and this is a big wallet pincher) have you considered Hornets? BS4, AV11, not open topped and can let tear with a torrent of fire (all weapons at cruising). They come in at more than Vypers, but not by much. See below as an example;

HQ:

Jetseer - Spear, RoWarding, Spirit Stones, Jetbike, Fortune, Doom
Jetseer - Spear, Spirit Stones, Jetbike, Fortune, Guide

Troops:

Guardian Jetbikes - 6 - 2x S.Cannon, Jetlock w/Spear, Destructor
Guardian Jetbikes - 6 - 2x S.Cannon, Jetlock w/Spear, Destructor

Guardian Stormies - 10 - 1x Fusion Gun, 1x Flamer, Warlock w/Spear, Destructor : Mounted in Serpent with TL-Bright Lances
Guardian Stormies - 10 - 1x Fusion Gun, 1x Flamer, Warlock w/Spear, Destructor : Mounted in Serpent with TL-Bright Lances

Fast Attack:

Vypers - 3 - Scatter Lasers

Horners - 3 - Scatter Laser / EML (each)

Comes in with 14 points to spare... hope this is kinda useful.

It's quite funny,just after I posted that I realised that I was quite lacking in the anti-horde department, in hindsight, I'd swap out the Defenders for tri-flamer Storms w/ Brightlance Wave Serpents.

Forge World doesn't really go down well in my area so I try to stay away from it, thanks for the suggestion though, I'll keep it in mind.

akaean wrote:A few things I've noticed. Definitely swap the bright lances and scatter lasers. You are relying on those bright lances and singing spears where normally you would be using fire dragons. You want them to be twin linked where possible. The Scatter Lasers are better on the guardians where the low BS is less of a huge deal. amoratized over 4 shots. If you are going to take a singing spear on the Warlock might as well take 2 fusion gun Storm Guardians. Same range as the spear and better than a lance when its in range. The only reason you'd want Guardian Defenders is to drop them off far away from the enemy and plink away with the heavy weapon. Storm Guardians are better up close.

Also why vectored engines? 20 points for what they give you is not worth it. You are better off with spirit stones which can come into play more than just when you move flat out, or Star Engines which actually increase the range you can flat out. I really just don't understand why you would want to take vectored engines.

I'm also not really feeling the vypers. For just a few more points you could be taking a holofalcon with a star cannon and a DAVU. That would give you more scoring units (more the merrier) and still bring a lot of ap2, as well as more s8 which helps when you don't take any dragons

Like I said above, I think I'll swap them for Storms.

The Vectored engines were to ensure that I don't lose a squad after Flat-Outing (something which has happened far too much).

Again, I'm trying to keep a Jetbike-centric theme running throughout the army and the Vypers were my answer for Terminators and the like.

Iranna.

Been a while since i posted down here in the lists forums, so I'll take a swing.

The main reason for all lists becoming congealed as the same thing over an over is because our ever increasing lack of options. Fire Dragons got a much unneeded boost in necessity thanks to crons. If you want to go with a jetbike theme you could always through everyone offguard and go with a complete jetbike army... (after putting a mortgage out on your house). Surprisingly enough though with Wraiths becoming the new OMG unit you will see Bladestorm Avengers and Guardians becoming a little more viable. The only answer we have to Wraiths (as most armies) is swarm fire and if you don't have at least one unit for this you'll find them an utter PITA to deal with. Not a huge issue right now, but once he Wraith Box releases you'll see every damn cron player and their mother rockin 6-18 of those little buggers.

While I'm not a fan of Vyper's I can see their value to some people. That being said, you have wayyyy too much squishieness vs cost there and if you got the vyper route stick to scatter lasers. For the cost of those 6 Vypers you can get 2 Falcons with Holos/Stones/Brightlance which will stick around 10x longer.

I'll also 2nd the no Vectored Engines. Bank points on "what ifs" rather then statistics is giving into your superstitions. Mitigate the immobilizes with not full outing if you plan to land in terrain. Remember that if you get wrecked in your opponents shooting phase they disembark like normal.

BlueDagger wrote:Been a while since i posted down here in the lists forums, so I'll take a swing.

The main reason for all lists becoming congealed as the same thing over an over is because our ever increasing lack of options. Fire Dragons got a much unneeded boost in necessity thanks to crons. If you want to go with a jetbike theme you could always through everyone offguard and go with a complete jetbike army... (after putting a mortgage out on your house). Surprisingly enough though with Wraiths becoming the new OMG unit you will see Bladestorm Avengers and Guardians becoming a little more viable. The only answer we have to Wraiths (as most armies) is swarm fire and if you don't have at least one unit for this you'll find them an utter PITA to deal with. Not a huge issue right now, but once he Wraith Box releases you'll see every damn cron player and their mother rockin 6-18 of those little buggers.

While I'm not a fan of Vyper's I can see their value to some people. That being said, you have wayyyy too much squishieness vs cost there and if you got the vyper route stick to scatter lasers. For the cost of those 6 Vypers you can get 2 Falcons with Holos/Stones/Brightlance which will stick around 10x longer.

I'll also 2nd the no Vectored Engines. Bank points on "what ifs" rather then statistics is giving into your superstitions. Mitigate the immobilizes with not full outing if you plan to land in terrain. Remember that if you get wrecked in your opponents shooting phase they disembark like normal.

Thanks for your reply.

I haven't seen as big a flux of Necron players around here as I thought I would so Wraiths aren't really a common sight around here. However as you say, when the Wraith kit comes out it may change dramatically; so food for thought certainly.

Personally, I love Vypers. I took Starcannons based on the fact that I didn't really have anything that could threaten Terminator Armour (something that you could say Eldar struggle with in general without Fire Dragons) so I tried to mitigate this here.

I shall have a re-think of these Vectored Engines, thanks for the comments.

Iranna.

Personally, my anti-termi is my beloved Nightspinners. Most people don't expect them to shred apart heavy infantry as much as they do... which brings me a disturbing satisfaction lol.

Hi Iranna,

Just curious, does your club use alot of terrain? I've noticed since 5th Ed sprung forth even with AP2 weaponry, cover is used quite alot. Also concerned that Starcannons (with their expensive cost) might have difficulty with this, given BS3 shooting meaning on average 3 hits per squad... then you've got the cover saves to worry about. I guess a bit of math hammer needs to be done in order to work out which would be better in this case if you keep your Vypers in the mix. Shall we look at some options?

Keeping at range:

Star Cannon - 6 shots, 3 hit, lets be lenient and say all wound (1/6 chance of failure), potentially 2 dead.
Scatter Laser - 12 shots, 6 hit, 5 wound, hmmm... could be right, not looking pretty against Termies.

Close quarters:

Warp Spiders - 18 shots, 12 hit, 10 wound, now we're almost on par!
Shining Spears - 5 shots, 3 hit (lets say), maybe you get lucky? THEN 11 CC attacks, say 8 hit, lets be lenient again and suggest 6-7 wound,probably going to lose 2-3.

The advantage of the Spiders is their ability to jump in, let rip and get out, of course if the Shining Spears fail miserably, you're in a world of hurt - almost need Spiders/Spears to work in tandem... soften up then go for the kill.

As much as I miss seeing Vypers on the TT, once they are in the open - easy pickings. Oh how I wish they still were called "Vyper Jetbikes", classified as such would give them that extra 6" assault move to get their backsides into cover again... justifying their viability once more.

BlueDagger wrote:Personally, my anti-termi is my beloved Nightspinners. Most people don't expect them to shred apart heavy infantry as much as they do... which brings me a disturbing satisfaction lol.

I've never had much luck with Nightspinners. I use them to slow either a big nasty unit or a unit with lots of bodies. They've always under-performed when I've tried to use the as aggressively as Prisms.

Iranna.

The key is Doom. Hit the unit with doom, pie plate them, reroll any dice that aren't 6s, and smile as they fall down. When they go move smile as even more fall down

Blue, I like the way you think, but isn't that illegal? The key to Doom is you can reroll any FAILED to wound rolls... since its St6, its going to wound on 2+... only 1's can be rerolled :( low chance of that given most termie squads are 5 strong.

Dealing with Termies, pop their transport, make them get out on foot... run rings around them, they aren't going anywhere fast

Assault units matching your speed should be a concern however...

Nope, reread your dex

It's a common misconception that Doom is reroll failed to wounds, but it actually simply states "Reroll to wound". This gives us the ability to reroll any of the to wound dice regardless of if they failed or succeeded. It is particually nasty in concert with Nightspinners or Harliquins.

BlueDagger wrote:Nope, reread your dex

It's a common misconception that Doom is reroll failed to wounds, but it actually simply states "Reroll to wound". This gives us the ability to reroll any of the to wound dice regardless of if they failed or succeeded. It is particually nasty in concert with Nightspinners or Harliquins.

Interesting...

Harlequins have just become so much more attractive now.

Iranna.

Sadly even with a gallion rending hits with reroll to rend doesn't make up for the fact that it's a unit of T3 5++ for 250ish points. If Wave Serpents had an assault vehicle upgrade and Harlies could take one as a DT then yeah they would become worth it lol.