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Note that all discussion is at 2,000 points and the list is meant to be competitive.

I've expressed distaste over running two Land Raiders in a single list quite a while back, since I don't like sinking half of my points into two vehicles. Now that I have play experience with Vulkan, I have determined that he probably needs to have two Land Raiders filled with TH/SS Termies in order to be truly effective.

So, I ask, how would such a list be designed? How would it play? What supporting units would there be? What units would not be taken of those that can carry Flamers and Meltas?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Well, first off you'd need Vulcan XD

But seriously, he should be your only HQ choice to start off. A Libby with Null Zone and Gate of Infinity will follow if the points are there, but for now, we'll leave that out. This will obviously be a rock list, so lets start with Vulcan and the Rock.

HQ
-Vulcan He'Stan (190 points)

Elites
-5x Assault Terminators (465 points)
5x TH/SS
Land Raider Redeemer with Multi Melta and Extra Armor

-5x Assault Terminators (465 points)
5x TH/SS
Land Raider Redeemer with Multi Melta and Extra Armor

Thats 1,120 out of the way right off the bat, which hurts, but isn't too bad. Now we need troops. Melta Bunker Tac Squads are the order of the day here, so we'll take 2 of them. However, those are more midfield objective holders, so we'll need something cheap to sit on a home objective if need be.

Troops
-10x Tactical Marines (215 points)
Melta Gun
Multi Melta
Sgt with Combi Flamer
Rhino

-10x Tactical Marines (215 points)
Melta Gun
Multi Melta
Sgt with Combi Flamer
Rhino

-5x Scouts (100 points)
Sniper Rifles
Camo Cloaks
Missile Launcher

This brings our total to 1,650 so far. At 1,750 we can add in a Librarian and call it a day, but let's keep expanding to 2,000. Now, all this mid and short ranged firepower is all well and good, but we'll need that can reach out and touch people, either through speed or range. Land Speeders are the perfect candidate for this, as are Dreadpods. We'll flesh out our elites section with this...

-Dreadnought (140 points)
Multi Melta
Drop Pod

And then fill out our fast attack with this...

-Land Speeder (70 points)
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

-Land Speeder (70 points)
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

-Land Speeder (70 points)
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

This brings us to 2,000 points on the nose. Let's see what it looks like when we put it all together!


HQ
-Vulcan He'Stan (190 points)

Elites
-5x Assault Terminators (465 points)
5x TH/SS
Land Raider Redeemer with Multi Melta and Extra Armor

-5x Assault Terminators (465 points)
5x TH/SS
Land Raider Redeemer with Multi Melta and Extra Armor

-Dreadnought (140 points)
Multi Melta
Drop Pod

Troops
-10x Tactical Marines (215 points)
Melta Gun
Multi Melta
Sgt with Combi Flamer
Rhino

-10x Tactical Marines (215 points)
Melta Gun
Multi Melta
Sgt with Combi Flamer
Rhino

-5x Scouts (100 points)
Sniper Rifles
Camo Cloaks
Missile Launcher

Fast Attack
-Land Speeder (70 points)
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

-Land Speeder (70 points)
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

-Land Speeder (70 points)
Multi Melta
Heavy Flamer

So that's 8 vehicles (not counting the drop pod) with 10 assorted melta guns and multi meltas, 9 various flamers, and a whole lot of hammer time action. This looks pretty damn angry if you ask me. Whaddya think?

@ th3maninblak
I am also currently in the process of putting together some salamanders and I have been doing a bunch of codex grinding to see where I want to end up at 2k, and thanks to you I know exactly where i want to go with it, that is a mean well balanced list! thanks for saving me some time

AresX8 wrote:So, I ask, how would such a list be designed? How would it play? What supporting units would there be? What units would not be taken of those that can carry Flamers and Meltas?

What made you think that you need to double down on your deathstar? Is one of the raiders just getting immobilized?

Have you thought of putting a TAC squad in your 2nd LR. If your first LR gets immobilized or popped, just eject out the TAC squad and move your TH/SS termies into the mobile LR. That will save you 200+ points. (depending on the composition of your 2nd death star)

If you have your heart stuck on 2 death stars, you will need some support units. I suggest the following
1 TAC squad (combat squaded, full strength)
1 min size scout squad (object holders)
Dual MM speeders -- use them at 24" away to lay down MM effect. A MM at 24" is better than a LC vs AV 13 or less due to the AP1. MM bikes may also fill this role.
Sternguard with combi-meltas in a Drop Pod. Use this as your solution to enemy AV14 or 'that vehicle you have to kill'

I suggest 1 TAC squad.
Your already going to be going with 2 deathstars that your jamming down your opponents throat, so in 'roll dice and tie' missions, you wont need to worry about contesting his objective. 3 squads should be enough to claim your own.
TAC squads suck, so limiting this suckage in annihilation missions is helpful.
The only mission that is tough for you is 'capture and control', as 5 objectives can be tough with 3 scoring units. Hey, that's the price you pay for dual deathstar.

I disagree that you even need TH/SS termies and therefore that you need 2 landraiders.

How about this.

Vulkan (190)

3 Vindicators( 375) (565)

3 Tacticals (635) 1200

3 Landspeeders (210) 1410

1 MM/HF Dread (115) 1525 (Or librarian)

8 Sternguard with Combi wpns in Rhino (275) 1800

5 Sternguard with Combi wpns in Rhino (185) 1985

With TL flamers and/or meltas, you can almost guarantee hits or wounds 75% of the time. Units -even terminators- will not stand up to 6 to 8 meltas and 2 75% wounding flamers. Add to that Vulkans heavy flamer and they are going to be making about 6 invulnerable saves and 12 regular saves... An opposing unit of TH/SS terminators is going to lose - on average 4 termies to that in the fire phase.

DAaddict wrote:8 Sternguard with Combi wpns in Rhino (275) 1800

5 Sternguard with Combi wpns in Rhino (185) 1985

Why not put these in a pod? In a rhino they can get shot up at range. In a pod, they can hit what needs to be hit with the combi-meltas when they come out.

labmouse42 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:8 Sternguard with Combi wpns in Rhino (275) 1800

5 Sternguard with Combi wpns in Rhino (185) 1985

Why not put these in a pod? In a rhino they can get shot up at range. In a pod, they can hit what needs to be hit with the combi-meltas when they come out.

That is a matter of choice, I find that when an opponent is faced with 3 vindicators with 5 rhinos followed up by 3 speeders and a dreadnought. They tend not to shoot at the rhinos. While a drop pod gets them to the target, it is marines out in the open and walking forever after. In other words dead. Due to the speed and range of rhinos and meltas, I have found that we are really talking surviving 1 fire phase - Turn 1. At that point you should be in a position to unload all your close ranged Twin-linked goodness on an enemy. Two 12" moves, deployment generally at least 12" up on board and a 6" lethal range means your opponent only has about 6" of "safety" from your army on turn 2.

That's reasonable. I know if I were facing that list, this is how I would put my target priority

Long range STR 6+ fire -- speeders. Easy kills to weaken enemy fire.
HIgh STR shots -- vindicators. Tools for MM bikes, LCs or fire dragons.
Sternguard rhinos -- put em on foot early
Dread -- it will be getting into the threat zone.
Tac Squads -- they bring the least threat

With the 3 vindicators the rhinos may work. Perhaps splitting the difference and podding 1 and rhino'ing the other. The nice thing about the pod is it gives them the ability to be wherever they need to be on turn 1. 5 combi-meltas is a sure thing vs any major target, such as a LR full of termies and vulcan or a draigowing out of cover.

Another option is attack bikes with MM - they are easier to kill than landspeeders but behind a wall of rhinos, a lot harder to target and with a TL MM, you should only need 1 shot to get your points back.

Labmouse: No, my LR is seldom getting immobilized since I've been protecting it as much as possible by obscuring/firing off smoke. What I'm finding is that I don't have a lot of oomph once my Termies get to the enemy lines. It might be my playing strategy because I'm sending the LR to combat as soon as possible without giving enough time to soften up the targets. This may be the issue, but I haven't had enough play experience to determine that since I've had so many games where I just derp. This thread is a result of my initial experience.

DAddict: Vindis in a Vulkan list make me go "Eh?" but I see their use. That's 375 points that's not benefiting from Vulkan though.

I DO like Attack Bikes. I find them to be very reliable in Melta delivery due to Turbo Boost and their low profile.

--A librarian for nullzone is worthwhile. The hood also. Both help counter many of the major threats to your termies.
--I think people make a big mistake when making vulkan lists when they ignore long range fire for min/maxing his chapter tactics. I am a long time Salamander player (3ed era) and in my experience its worth having some long range fire in exchange for melta spam, whether its via typhoon speeders with flamers; or razorbacks; or a few MLs in tacticals.

Just my two cents.

AresX8 wrote:Labmouse: No, my LR is seldom getting immobilized since I've been protecting it as much as possible by obscuring/firing off smoke. What I'm finding is that I don't have a lot of oomph once my Termies get to the enemy lines. It might be my playing strategy because I'm sending the LR to combat as soon as possible without giving enough time to soften up the targets. This may be the issue, but I haven't had enough play experience to determine that since I've had so many games where I just derp. This thread is a result of my initial experience.

DAddict: Vindis in a Vulkan list make me go "Eh?" but I see their use. That's 375 points that's not benefiting from Vulkan though.

I DO like Attack Bikes. I find them to be very reliable in Melta delivery due to Turbo Boost and their low profile.

Agreed it doesn't benefit but it scares an opponent to thing of 3 big pie plates of S10 AP2 doom. That makes the TL MM and TL flamers seem almost acceptable to an opponent. Kind of a pick your poison option. Frankly if an opponent would rather shoot apart my tactical squads in rhinos, I will live with "only" being able to gut his concentration with 3 pie plates.

I like maninblak's list alot, the only thing is at 2k i'd want a libby. You will want psycic defense pretty bad at 2k and really at any point level if you are facing GK, SW, or BA imo. It really makes a difference to make sure Gk strike squads are wounding on a 4 instead of a 3 because they bring so many attacks. Also Termis often end up bunched together either after a combat or a destroyied vehicle so Joww can really hurt, and being twin linked is great but usless if our oponent is getting coversaves on his vehicles without poping smoke. Also null zone is a really good buff as your opponent will often send some pretty elite units after your thunderhammers. I'd probably drop the dread and pod which gives you enough points for a libby in termi armour with a ss. Your speeders are enough to reach out and touch someone imo. If you want the dread I'd strip the scouts (no cloaks or missle) change a tac melta to a flamer and drop one landspeeder to get a naked libby.

I noticed that his list didn't have a Libby, so I put together this:

No Name (1990pts)
2000pt Space Marines 5th Ed (2008) Roster (Standard)

Selections:

* HQ (290pts)

* Forgefather Vulkan He'Stan (190pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Tactics, Independent Character)

* Librarian (100pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character, Psyker)
Bolt Pistol, Null Zone, Power Armour, The Avenger

* Elites (675pts)

* Terminator Assault Squad (475pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
* Land Raider Crusader
(Assault Vehicle, Power of the Machine Spirit)
Extra Armour, Multi-Melta
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator Sergeant
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

* Terminator Assault Squad (200pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
* Terminator Sergeant
Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

* Troops (540pts)

* Scout Squad (100pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Scouts)
* 4x Scout
4x Camo Cloaks, Missile Launcher, 3x Sniper Rifle
* Scout Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Camo Cloak, Sniper Rifle

* Tactical Squad (220pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Rhino (Repair, Tank), 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Flamer

* Tactical Squad (220pts)
(And They Shall Know no Fear, Combat Squads, Combat Tactics)
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Rhino (Repair, Tank), 9x Space Marine
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Combi-Flamer

* Fast Attack (210pts)

* Land Speeder Squadron (70pts)
* Land Speeder
(Deep Strike)
Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

* Land Speeder Squadron (70pts)
* Land Speeder
(Deep Strike)
Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

* Land Speeder Squadron (70pts)
* Land Speeder
(Deep Strike)
Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta

* Heavy Support (275pts)

* Land Raider Crusader (275pts)
(Assault Vehicle, Power of the Machine Spirit)
Extra Armour, Multi-Melta

@aresX you don't want crusaders for this list. You want a redeemer so your flamstorm are twinlinked from valkan which makes them really nasty to anything that is not sitting in a transport.

Of course the more I think about it I'm not sure vulkan twinlinks the flamestorm, Does he?

Flamestorms are not TL under Vulkan.

AresX8 wrote:Flamestorms are not TL under Vulkan.

Sad to say but true :(

Didn't think so. Still there is no nead to pay the extra points for a crusader when you don't need the capacity and at the end of the day the list has so much tl melta that you are going to encounter guys on foot a lot and I like what Flamstorm does to them (not to mention it is brutal against scarabs (another threat to the LR) compared to 6 twinlinked bolter shots

DAaddict wrote:

AresX8 wrote:Flamestorms are not TL under Vulkan.

Sad to say but true :(

Oh... My bad. I thought they were. Had I known that I would have run Crusaders instead. Dropping the dreadpod for the libby and running crusaders over redeemers makes the list as good as it gets, IMO, which is pretty damn good!

Redeemers are 10 points cheaper, I don't see why you would go with crusaders if you don't need the large capacity

Pony_law wrote:Redeemers are 10 points cheaper, I don't see why you would go with crusaders if you don't need the large capacity

Because without the (now de-bunked) twin-linking, the Crusader can just put out more firepower. Additionally, the redeemer has some really akward angles on it's guns. Plus, the Crusader can move 6 inches and fire all of its weapons: 1 weapon, +1 for PotMS, and the Hurricane Bolters as defensive weapons.

th3maninblak wrote:

Pony_law wrote:Redeemers are 10 points cheaper, I don't see why you would go with crusaders if you don't need the large capacity

Because without the (now de-bunked) twin-linking, the Crusader can just put out more firepower. Additionally, the redeemer has some really akward angles on it's guns. Plus, the Crusader can move 6 inches and fire all of its weapons: 1 weapon, +1 for PotMS, and the Hurricane Bolters as defensive weapons.

Meh...usually your moving 12" and firing one gun, not 6".

The way I find that it works out is that redeemers are better vs MEQ, and crusaders are better vs GEQ.

The Crusader's transport capacity is only a bonus, it's not the main reason why it's taken.

One Assault Terminator squad may take a Landraider or any of the variants for a dedicated transport.

For OP, you can only take one LR for dedicated transport.
Or did I read it wrong and you took the LRR's as heavy support?