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Questions is effectively what it says on the tin. I've slowly been building a cityfight gaming board and I'm considering starting a new army to go with it. The armies I'm considering are (mainly) Space Marines and Imperial Guard. Open to others. I've previously played very... generic armies (Vanilla SM with Tacs, Rhino, Predator, Riflemen; IG with Meltavets, Russes, Vendetta, etc) and it would be fun to stick to more of a theme. That theme, obviously, is city fight!

So, what should be going for? I'm thinking in kind of terrain:

- Long ranged direct anti-tank is going to be less important. Autocannons.
- Close-ranged weaponry becomes more important. Melta, Flamers.
- Ways to negate cover save is a plus
- Blasts come into their own
- Jump infantry have an advantage, as do Skimmers
- Fast vehicles and bikes at a disadvantage
- Abundance of cover saves means weight > quality of firepower

Been toying with aspects such as an Artillery heavy IG list (indirect Ordnance blasts ignoring cover saves) with Infantry Melta/Flamer support, Demolitions, and so on.

What are your thoughts? How would you approach building a very terrain-heavy urban army? Not specifically SM or IG either.

Green Tide Orks with Killa Kan support would be pretty hard to beat, with the smaller amount of anti-tank needed. 3-4 mobs of 20 Orks with some Power Klaws
thrown in the mix and maybe a unit of Tankbustas (just in case) and you're good to go.

Wraiths FTW

I would base it around templates, indirect fire and short ranged lethality.

As an example, with Eldar:

Avatar for fearless.
Stormguardians for flamers.
Striking scorpions and harlequins for move through cover and stealth.
Pathfinders. Small number to assist in picking off enemy and holding an objective.
Eldar hw platforms... With actual terrain to hide behind, D-cannons.
Nightspinners - yes its a vehicle but indirect goodness.
Spiders - lethal short range and very mobile.
Wraithguard - tough to kill and short ranged goodness.
Wraithlord - T8 and two flamers sounds good to me.

Things that ignore cover make a huge difference. I can't recall the exact name but the IG artillery that is AP 3 and ignores cover. Otherwise flamers and Heavy flamers are nasty.

Things like plasma and lascannons are of much less use. Vehicles in general struggle except for Vindis w/shields. Fast skimmers also aren't as bad nor are bikes/jetbikes. Just patrol the "streets" with them. A few meltas can be helpful against walkers.

So for IG

The afforementioned artillery.
Ratlings
Vets with cloaks and flamers maybe some meltas in there.
Actually any artillery that can fire inderectly. Leman Russ Demolishers with the appropriate strategem can clear builidings so it may be an include. Sentinels also can be surprising.

For marines.

You get hurt a lot since most armies that you normally went through with a bolter get a save nearly equal to yours. I'd say take a couple of tech marines/MotF for bolster defenses. Scouts with cloaks here can give them a 2+ cover save while shooting a ML or snipers.
Tac squads should probably take the free MM and either the flamer or melta gun. Obviously I'd lean to the flamer.
Vindicators with seige shields will probably be amazing in a city fight game.

For me, when I think 'City Fighting' I think of classic stuff like Stalingrad. To bad sniper rifles are not nearly as useful. I think Plasma guns are also going to be pretty huge due to the ability to rapid fire. Your also going to be in such close quarters that power weapons will be huge because your going to be getting into close combat alot more. I would actually avoid vehicles as much as possible, even artillery. I think the only thing I would consider is Drop Pods because you don't scatter and Dreadnaughts. Scout Sentinals might be interesting due to the 'Move Through Cover' rule. Units like Ogryns might also be worthwhile to use, though I think the only IC that should lead Ogryns is Yarrick. They do need that power weapon though. Mortars are also interesting due to how Cover saves are used against Barrage weapons.

I honestly could see foot IG as a defensive list and Marines as an assault list. But just to give it a shot, I will flip those roles.... Since you haven't given a point total, I will make two suggested lists at 2000pts to give you some ideas.

IG Offence list...

CCS - 255pts
LC, Plasma gun, Standard, Camo Cloaks, Astropath, OotF, Creed

5x Storm Troopers - 125pts
2x Plasma guns, PW, Recon

5x Storm Troopers - 125pts
2x Plasma guns, PW, Recon

Marbro - 65pts

PCS - 75pts
Heavy Flamer, 3x Flamers, PW

PIS - 120pts (blob 1)
Commissar, 2x PWs, Melta guns, Melta bomb

PIS - 75pts (blob 1)
PW, Melta gun, Melta bomb

PIS - 120pts (blob 2)
Commissar, 2x PWs, Melta guns, Melta bomb

PIS - 75pts (blob 2)
PW, Melta gun, Melta bomb

AC HWS - 75pts

AC HWS - 75pts

AC HWS - 75pts

SWS - 65pts
2x Flamers, Demo Charge

SWS - 65pts
2x Flamers, Demo Charge

Vets - 140pts
3x Melta guns, Sentries or Demolitions, Shotguns, PW

Vets - 140pts
3x Melta guns, Sentries or Demolitions, Shotguns, PW

3x Scout Sentinels - 130pts
3x ACs, Camo Netting

3x Scout Sentinels - 130pts
3x ACs, Camo Netting

3x Scout Sentinels - 130pts
3x Heavy Flamers, Camo Netting

2000pts

Master of the Forge - 150pts
Conversion Beamer, Thunder hammer

Vulkan - 190pts

8x Honor Guard Squad - 375pts
Thunder hammer, Digital Lasers, Chapter Banner, Drop pod

Techmarine - 90pts
Combi-Melta, Thunder hammer

Techmarine - 90pts
Combi-Melta, Thunder hammer

Techmarine - 90pts
Combi-Melta, Thunder hammer

10x Tactical Squad - 200pts
Melta gun, Multi-Melta, Power Fist

10x Tactical Squad - 200pts
Melta gun, Multi-Melta, Power Fist

5x Scouts - 100pts
HB, 4x Bolters, Camo Cloaks

5x Scouts - 100pts
HB, 4x Bolters, Camo Cloaks

5x Assault Squad - 130pts
Thunder hammer

Thunderfire Cannon - 100pts

Thunderfire Cannon - 100pts

Whirlwind - 85pts

2000pts

I think the tactics for both are pretty self explanitory... besides, this has taken me about 2 hours to type up and create.

BlkTom wrote:I think Plasma guns are also going to be pretty huge due to the ability to rapid fire.

See, I would have thought the opposite. Plasma Guns actually become less effective due to the abundance of 4+ cover saves.

A friend of mine had a good idea last night though: Drop Pod armies have a huge advantage in thick cityfight terrain. First, they cannot scatter into impassable terrain. Secondly, with some decent rolling it's entirely possible to block off whole sections of the board (by deploying the Drop Pod in the middle of a street). It creates or removes fire lanes, stops units advancing and such. Not a bad idea.

For Tyranids:

Fill up with Genestealers and Hive Guards, and then the rest is all about how much points you want to support this with... maybe even Biovhores as they are barrage weapons.

All that cover for your stealers to infiltrate, and Hive Guards ignore cover anyway.

And then basically you put in whatever you like that can hide in the cover.

Don't BA have that special rule that prevents them from scattering when Deep Striking with Jump Packs? In that case, a DoA list could be really good.

One of the best ways to overcome cover saves is the same way you overcome terminator armor... put on enough shots that they will roll some ones.

I will admit that I consider plasma guns more of a defencive weapon due to the rules of not being able to assault after firing a Rapid Fire weapon.

Drop pods
That is why in the Marine list I have a single drop pod, even though it is a defensive list. The goal with that list is to have 6 Bolster Defences, specially buildings where multiple units can use. Your Scouts would then have 2+ Cover saves and the other troops (or cannons) will have 3+. After that, far as I am concerned, throw your 3 Techmarines, Vulkan with the Honor Guard (12 man unit) in the drop pod and tear some stuff up with your master crafted Thunder hammers and 3 combi-Meltas. Just have them rampage in the rear while your cannons and Whirlwind do 'ignore cover' attacks.

@Edinn: Decent of Angels. You need Dante (I believe) for this.

OP, are you going to play by the real cityfight rules, or just using a board with city terrain?

Stealth and improved cover saves aren't as big as you'd think in real cityfight games because when they hear it's coming, everyone loads up on stuff that ignores cover. Flamers everywhere. Ignore cover is still great obvs.

for IG:
-colossus/eradicator
-hellhound/bane wolf
-sentinels with searchlights
-penal legionnaires
-ogryns
-HYDRAS

searchlights are worth it in cityfight because night fighting happens a lot. Camo on vehicles starts to get interesting as well.

for SM:
-sternguard
-assault marines
-terminators of both types
-whirlwind
-drop pods
-scouts
-scout bikers
-vulkan...

Almarine wrote:OP, are you going to play by the real cityfight rules, or just using a board with city terrain?

The latter. We may give the actual cityfight rules a bash though, but it's so far not the plan really. We feel all the stratagems unbalances the armies too much. The board will be heavily covered by roads, large and small buildings alike, multiple levels, etc.

Ok, so you need short range killing power, CC will happen because of short LOS, and very big tanks will be less usefull than on open ground.

GK anyone ?

For SM, I would add dreadnoughts, since they will have more cover than usual.