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Which Land Raider is the most competitive?

Crusader, all the way. Redeemer is too one dimensional and the vanilla has huge identity crisis (is it a bunker, gunboat, or transport? Sucks at all 3).

odorofdeath wrote: Redeemer is too one dimensional

what do you mean?

I like the regular land raider of those three. The crusader is nice for the extra storage space, but the super-bolters are pretty lame. Not like you already have bolters. Redeemers are even worse. You'll never get to fire more than one flamer at the same target, and your opponent can always spread out to seriously reduce the number of hits. Furthermore, you have to point the assault ramp at the enemy to hit them with the guys inside, which means you're scarcely going to get anything under a template even if the opponent's stuff doesn't spread out. The redeemer is by FAR the worst land raider option, as it's basically nothing but a super expensive rhino that can carry terminators.

Meanwhile, the regular land raider gets two twin-linked lascannons along with its multimelta which means that it can put out some serious firepower at range before it starts to drive in. Your other two options are nothing more than a transport, while the regular land raider can soften up the enemy before you transport their cargo, and can actually be used as a legitimate gunboat.

Land raiders are about giving you options. Regular land raiders give you the most options.

How many would you recommend taking?

The Crusader is the best as a transport/MOAR-DAKKA hybrid, great for putting a large squad in your opponent's face.

I like the Redeemer, but its Flamestorm Cannons are really a secondary concern. Like Ailaros said, it's basically a super-expensive Rhino in some respects. Take it to get your squad into the enemy's lines and then assault, but don't expect it to toast your enemy's troops. If that happens, it's a bonus, not the point.

I've never used the standard pattern, but I hear it's lackluster. Heck, I've fought a Terminus Ultra pattern a couple times, and it has always severely underperformed... so imagine what the weaker Lascannon variant's like.

One is a target, two is a tactic, three is a strategy.

This is true both for the taker and for the opponent. If you take one, your opponent is probably already going to have the killing power to take it out. At most they're just drawing fire. For you, though, it's not much of a sacrifice, and you're not relying on it, so it doesn't matter so much if your lone raider is destroyed.

If you take two, you're probably stretching your opponent's ability to handle AV14. This means your opponent is likely going to need to be a little creative in order to make sure they get put down in a timely manner. For you, you're now spending a lot of points on raiders, which means your raiders are now probably causing you to use other units differently, or to take different units in the first place. Likewise, you're putting so many points into raiders, that you've got to make sure you're using them right, and using other units to support them.

If you take three, you've practically guaranteed to outstrip your opponent's ability to handle them. You're likely getting at least one somewhere on time. Your opponent is likely going to have to adapt their entire army just to be able to handle this target class - their strategy is going to have to change. For you, you're now putting so many points into raiders and the squads inside that you're now running a raider list. Your whole list and the way you deploy and move (your strategy) will be based on how you're running your raiders.

However many you should take is depending on what you're trying to do.

In all honesty, with all the meltas and manticores i think theyre useless. Id rather take razorbacks with lasplas/twin las which is a better gun boat or twin linked heavy bolters/twin linked assault cannon which are better anit-infantry.

I prefer the Crusader, not only because it's the best transport, but because the regular variant is so inefficient for it's cost.

2 Lascannons and a Heavy Bolter are not exactly threatening, and paying 250ish points for this just seems insane.

And if you've got a squad in there, then what? You're just going to sit around for a few turns and "lay waste" with 2 Lascannons before commiting the stuff inside? You could do that, but why not just use a Crusader anyway and go balls out from the get go?

odorofdeath wrote:I prefer the Crusader, not only because it's the best transport, but because the regular variant is so inefficient for it's cost.

2 Lascannons and a Heavy Bolter are not exactly threatening, and paying 250ish points for this just seems insane.

And if you've got a squad in there, then what? You're just going to sit around for a few turns and "lay waste" with 2 Lascannons before commiting the stuff inside? You could do that, but why not just use a Crusader anyway and go balls out from the get go?

If i was going to play a Raider then I pretty much agree with this statement.

odorofdeath wrote:I prefer the Crusader, not only because it's the best transport, but because the regular variant is so inefficient for it's cost.

2 Lascannons and a Heavy Bolter are not exactly threatening, and paying 250ish points for this just seems insane.

And if you've got a squad in there, then what? You're just going to sit around for a few turns and "lay waste" with 2 Lascannons before commiting the stuff inside? You could do that, but why not just use a Crusader anyway and go balls out from the get go?

I prefer the redeemer simply because of the actual potential for incredible damage. It makes EVERYTHING up to and including MEQ cry tears of blood when it is able to fire, and the larger than average squad of nasty it is capable of carrying is also a threat. I typically run it up my opponents flank letting the POTMS spread sweet twin linked assault cannon love upon my foes as I advance.

I am not accustomed to running any less than two landraiders when I do however, and its always a crusader/ redeemer combo for maximized carrying capacity. If I need AT, I rely on my venerable missile, las dread for almost guaranteed damage on my target (hits on 2+ ftw XD and the LC is twin linked? YES PLZ!!! )

And possibly a lovely auto bolter pred or two aswell for extra light armor poppin fun.

Now as too complaining about the "nilla" pattern raider, it is NOT suffering from an Identity crisis anymore than the redeemer or crusader. They are all mobile bunkers for hiding your nasties and make no mistake about that. The fact that it comes with 2 twin linked lascannons and a heavy bolter, and the lovely MMelta (if added) are just icing on the cake... or bunker.

I never ever complain when my raider dies, ESPECIALLY if it crosses mid field before doing so. As long as its expensive (but oh so tasty) passengers survive rounds of focused fireI am a happy and satisfied customer.

Too each his own. Kudos for making the Redeemer work; my friend has 2, and I've seen it successfully fire both flamers once.

As to the vanilla LR, if it doesn't suffer from an identity problem, than what exactly is it intended to do? Because it neither shoots, nor transports well.

odorofdeath wrote:And if you've got a squad in there, then what? You're just going to sit around for a few turns and "lay waste" with 2 Lascannons before commiting the stuff inside? You could do that, but why not just use a Crusader anyway and go balls out from the get go?

It's two twin-linked BS4 S9 Ap2 weapons. That's a non-trivial amount of firepower.

The most common result is that you get two lascannon hits, which are able to pretty well waste light armor, while being a serious threat to heavier armor on the one hand while causing wounds on 2+, instant death and invul saves on the other. Add on a BS4 multimelta, and you've got a credible threat to a lot of targets. That's a lot more that it can do than just a couple twin-linked bolters or a flamer that, if you ever get to fire, you're not hitting many models with.

Crusader can move 6" and fire everything. It can deal with hordes well. In a BT list it is a beast to kill... otherwise it's just really really tough. It still threatens enemy armor and has the largest capacity.

My marine lists do very well removing enemy vehicles... They need to close and thin horde ranks. Crusaders do this better than any other platform in the marine FOC.

I love reading about people pissing and moaning about with their regurgitated internet rhetoric in regards to the LR phobos.

2 twin linked lascannons that take out armor, MCs or whatever from range or while advancing while carrying troops that can assault out of it straight into assault is it's intended purpose. The heavy bolter is there for either after the enemy's armor has been popped or to add weight of fire to larger units that the lascannons wouldn't do well or really even be used against to begin with.

As for the transport capacity issue, THAT is it's sole failing. Codex SM doesn't have that problem (thanks to writers that have no idea what they're doing) and I agree wholeheartidly that it should be upped to 12 PA troops standard (across all codexeses).

odorofdeath wrote:Crusader, all the way. Redeemer is too one dimensional

You realize the only differences between the redeemer and crusader are a transport capacity of two and the side weapons.

They both deliver termies
They both have TL AC
They both have a MM sponson
They both are assault vehicles
They both have frag assault launchers


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odorofdeath wrote:Too each his own. Kudos for making the Redeemer work; my friend has 2, and I've seen it successfully fire both flamers once. .

I've seen mine work quite often. Its all about placement. I've used them to deny FNP to DE. I've used them to flame MEQ in cover multiple times.

The hurricane bolters are pretty horrible vs. MEQ -- which is 80% of my matchups in competitive play. They are much more effective vs Guard, Orks, etc..


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Ailaros wrote: Furthermore, you have to point the assault ramp at the enemy to hit them with the guys inside.

Where in the rules is that? Thanks!
Edit : I was looking at my C:SM book and this is what I see.
p81 Assault Vehicle : Models disembarking from any access point on a Land Raider can launch an assault on the turn they do so.
p82 Frag Assault Launchers : Any unit charging into close combat on the same turn as it dimembarks from a Crusader or Redeemer counts as having frag gernades.
Is there somewhere else in the rules that states you need to assault out of the front of the LR to take advantage of the two rules above? Otherwise its pretty clear cut.

For Terminators Crusader is probably the just by sheer capacity & frag launchers.

Redeemer acts in the same role as a Crusader, just is more killy and less transporty.

Godhammer is Superior for any load of non-terminators IMHO, 12 power armoured marines is still a decent loadout.
It may lack the frag launchers, but all Codex marine not wearing terminator armour have frag grenades by default. my logic is this. The Godhammer has superior anti tank firepower and is far more useful at popping tanks so thier occupants can pepper/assault the enemy transports occupants.

I run a pair of godhammers in my larger lists ferrying sternguard, command squads or even tac squads with Pedro Kantor, Vulkan or Librarians.

labmouse42 wrote:Where in the rules is that? Thanks!
Edit : I was looking at my C:SM book and this is what I see.
p81 Assault Vehicle : Models disembarking from any access point on a Land Raider can launch an assault on the turn they do so.
p82 Frag Assault Launchers : Any unit charging into close combat on the same turn as it dimembarks from a Crusader or Redeemer counts as having frag gernades.
Is there somewhere else in the rules that states you need to assault out of the front of the LR to take advantage of the two rules above? Otherwise its pretty clear cut.

You don't have to assault out of the front ramp to use the Assault Vehicle rule. I suspect that Allaros was referring to the fact that most Redeemers have their flamestorm cannons forward-mounted on the LR's sides, creating a gap between the front and side access points that makes it difficult to deploy a whole squad from the side access point. LR Phobos and Crusaders usually mount their sponsons on the door that is further back, meaning that the whole front half of the LR can be used to disembark.

I commonly use a LR Phobos in all of my lists, and it does well at adding firepower to my line while letting my Assault Termies counterassault something important. Crusaders and Redeemers are better in an aggressive army, and I think all patterns have their place, although the Redeemer requires the most finesse to use by far.

1. Phobos pattern- they work best againt heavy vehicle lists.
2.Crusader pattern-the ultimate transport. (my deathstar)
3.Redeemer- close infantry support.

I always use at leats 1 and 2 crusaders when possible there are only a few weapons that really threaten them (s10 and 2d6 armor pen)
in a recent 15000 point battle i faced a fluffy chaos army with no heavy support weapons the raider ran to the objective in the middle of the board and dominated .

The Crusader all the way. Especially in a spam list. Redeemers are bad imo, you normally use the LRs to carry troops like terminators so why not use them instead of the redeemer cannons. The normal LR is nice and all with its TLLC but I prefer the TL assault cannons, frag launchers and extra transport capacity of the crusader. That and I play BT so I'll drop some Blessed Hull and maybe a dozer on it oh and enjoy my free MM.

I don't see how melta can threaten a LR spam army. You have to get close which means you have to run through my arsenal to get there. Then you have to deal with the marines/termis inside.

Roboute wrote:You don't have to assault out of the front ramp to use the Assault Vehicle rule. I suspect that Allaros was referring to the fact that most Redeemers have their flamestorm cannons forward-mounted on the LR's sides, creating a gap between the front and side access points that makes it difficult to deploy a whole squad from the side access point. LR Phobos and Crusaders usually mount their sponsons on the door that is further back, meaning that the whole front half of the LR can be used to disembark..

On my LRR, the flamestrike cannons are in the front as it made no sense to me for anyone to deploy right in FRONT of a big flamethrower.

Below is a snapshot I just took of my LRR and 5 terminators. Each terminator base is within 2" of the exit point, and the flame template was still able to hit 5 models (not all seen in the picture). The terminators have the ability to pull off a multi-assault on the valk and the traitor guard. I put the flame template on the board to illustrate where you could put the flame template.

i can see if your fielding 7 terminators in the LRR having problems assaulting, but I've not had a problem with it at this time in any play.



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Akroma06 wrote:I don't see how melta can threaten a LR spam army. You have to get close which means you have to run through my arsenal to get there. Then you have to deal with the marines/termis inside.

Sure, the 5 Fire Dragons that just smoked your LR are going to be viciously chewed up by the TH/SS termies inside. Or you can destroy the sternguard that just dropped in and popped your LR.

LR spam can work, but its throwing rock in a game. If you run across the wrong army that can throw paper, you will be crushed.

I think we're talking vanilla here.
Playing GK, LRC ! More paladins, using a stormraven as secondary target.

I will continue to advocate for the LRR. You're getting closer anyway so why not enjoy the template goodness?

I like the LRR for its MEQ killie power. For the same price of the other two you can throw in the MM; it can carry 5 terms with a IC also in term. armor inside. I usually throw in a chaplain in term. armor to increase the damage my CCS can dish. This is a vehicle that can't be ignored, and for that it pays back in dividends because my other vehicles are taking less penetrating fire. To help avoid DSing suicide squads, I try and surround my LRR with rhinos. This provides a cover save when I do move up and keeps the pods far enough away to help prevent getting popped the first turn.

@labmouse42
Yeah a DS melta squad will take one out. Normally I'll roll up 12" and pop smoke so I actually still have a decent chance of keeping my LR alive. At that point it's all about not letting them get a second shot off. Tau will also be annoying with target locked broadsides but even then if the contents of my LR make it across I'm golden. Normally I can't afford termis but normal innitiates tend to do just fine at that point. Yeah if someone runs a pure 3 squads of 10 sternguard w/ 2 meltas and 8 combi meltas, and nothing from tactical squads but MM and MG I'm in trouble but all I have to do is deal with the DP sterguard then sit back out of range and blaster the MM while the LRC go for the MG halves.

@Seb
The OP never said a codex so I'm taking that as an open discussion of the big 3 types of LR across all current codexes. I happen to know BT better than C:SM, or GK, or BA, or CSM, or SW so I went with that. Now I've tried a redeemer it just doesn't seem to have the same effect that my crusaders have. Why have the extra transport capacity and not use it for sake of the redeemer cannon? Normal LR are ok for LC platforms or I can get LC from tac/innitiate squads and save my LR points for something with plenty of room and some decent firepower.

The only main I have with the Redeemer is that I've never liked template weapons, and those crazy flamers are no exception. My opponents are all canny enough to spread out if confronted with such nastiness.

There is something awesome about moving 12" and unloading everything, in my opinion. That's why I like the Crusader so much,

If you move 12' isn't that cruising speed and you are only able to fire one weapon from POTMS?

All defensive weapons can only fire at combat speed IIRC.

Assault cannon gets POTMS, H. Bolters are defensive and can always be fired. I believe.

Defensive is only at combat speed for a land raider.

:(