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I'm in the process of restarting my Blood Angels and have been perusing the interwebs heavily to get the lay of the land. I have to give a lot of credit to lkhero's blog on Blood Angels which is probably one of the best blog resources I have found for a starting player. He also gave me some good advice and helped me refine my ideas a lot with his formidable experience.

It's been actually quite hard to get information on 1500 lists because most of the gaming scene has shifted to larger games. We still do 1500 at our store to keep it quick, have trade-offs in army selection, and to handicap marines a bit. I still like the more skirmish feel of the game rather than huge battlefields but I understand that different sizes appeal to different individuals.

2^5 list:
Librarian w/Jump Pack (Shield and Rage)
Librarian w/Jump Pack (Shield and Rage)
Priest w/Jump Pack
Priest w/Jump Pack
10 ASM w/Jump Packs, 2 Meltaguns, and Powerfist
10 ASM w/Jump Packs, 2 Meltaguns, and Powerfist
5 ASM w/Meltagun and Power Weapon in Razorback w/Lascannon & Plasmagun
5 ASM w/Meltagun and Power Weapon in Razorback w/Lascannon & Plasmagun
Predator Auto/Las
Predator Auto/Las
Total: 1500

As you can see, there are 2 of every single unit out there. It just kind of worked out that way. It is also a hybrid of jump troops with vehicles. I really hope that it can work out and I’ve seen others have success with this hybrid approach. The hybrid feels more fun to play and more maneuverable which suits my play style and maybe helps balance the fact that the list is so symmetrical.

Each ASM Jump squad is led by a Librarian and Priest which hopefully should create a 6” 5+ cover save and FNP/FC bubble around it. All of my ASM in packs and even my vehicles initially will benefit from this cover save since two 6” circles tangentially-touching covers a huge area compared to one circle. Having 2 chances to cast Shield of Sanguinius is also nice in case there are hoods out there who usually have around a 40-50% chance of nullifying.

The vehicle formation could also be R P P R and thus protecting the Predator’s vulnerable side armor. The Razorback squads are designed to be midfield and versatile to support both the Predators backline fire and also move up to support the jump pack troops. The Power Weapon in the small squads hopefully makes them a more credible assault reserve. The small ASM squads are almost like the old min-max Lascannon/Plasma Tacs except with a min-max meltagun and power weapon. The other nice advantages of the list are that there are 30 models to objectives and also the list can be fully reserved with no footslogging or drop-podding.

Thoughts and ideas? I understand that this boring type of "cookie-cutter" list construction is not everyone’s cup of tea.

Honestly, that is a very well thought out list. Any changes would either be very minimal and all personal choice, or large and destructive towards your symmetrical list. All in all it's a great list, I'm just trying to give it any and all input I can.

It seems as though you've created a very powerful list.

Are you trying to tailor to "all-comers" because I feel as though this list is anti-mech with all the lascannons + jumping FC Powerfists.

Just my Opinion but I feel as though the preds are a little too expensive for what they do. There's more reliable ways to get extra lascannons out if that's all you want them for.

Lastly, I've seen versatile lists do really well. But other times I've seen the enemy pinpoint his targets and annihilate

EXAMPLE: Enemy has just enough anti-tank to stop/slow your mech assault. And just enough blast/template weapons/hail of fire to whittle down the units jumping. Any blast weapon with 8+ str if going to hurt those jump squads bad bad if it didn't scatter away.

Thank you for the response and kind words! The list is clearly built for facing a more Marine-heavy and Mech-heavy meta which I believe is pretty common everywhere. The list does have quite a bit of mobile firepower that would allow me to stand back and shoot some and not necessarily have to charge in right away (which would be my plan against marines anyway). However, there are no pure anti-hordes firepower such as flamers, Baals, Dakka Preds, etc. Maybe its a cognitive bias but ASM combined with flamers don't make a lot of sense when it feels like charging in with bp/ccw and FNP/FC seems like a better option. Flamers could remove casualties and prevent the unit from charging. I suspect that an Ork or Tyranid pure foot army would give the list trouble since they would just wear me down. But that's the price I pay for making the list good against the predominant armies out there and I won't tailor my army against specific opponents.

The Predators pt cost in a vacuum does seem a bit high. However, a big consideration is that the Pred if facing correctly is going to in a very advantageous position facing Rifleman Dreads (all except GK's). The Predator being able to move 6 and fire all weapons which the Razors are also designed to do with this configuration is also a huge plus. Finally, the Preds can come on in reserves and be firing first turn or even turbo up and contest objectives at the end. My point is that in all the aspects outside of firewpower, the 15 pts extra for a BA Pred makes the cost seem justified and provides quite a lot of bonuses.

There's no perfect list obviously out there. If I was all-Mech with my ASM's in Rhinos, it may protect me from some initial firepower. However, all the dynamics of using a Rhino as an assault platform make it a lot harder to engage. If the Rhino is taken out, then all my mobility is lost and I"m facing the enterprise of footslogging into a hail of fire. If it's all jump troop, then I lack the heavy hitters and staying power that vehicles provide and would possibly need to DoA. Either list could be entirely predictable (someone could kit out to kill mech) or possibly be a complete boon (I'm all infantry and my opponent brough all anti-vehicle) shooting.

What you're saying is that the hybrid list is basically easier to tackle for an opponent because it doesn't overload any particular area. That's why I think tfor the hybrid list redundancy is the key. If you have multiple units able to engage in the same role (or in my case just multiple units), then you can sustain and be well-balanced like a sports team analogy.

As for the Blast templates, that's what the 5+ psychic shield is for. I realize that it's not as good as traditional cover in this edition, but being a 3rd/4th edition player I'm used to 5+. Having a 5+ cover save and FNP covers most of the weapons I'm likely to face IMO. Strength 8 blast/template weapons just aren't as numerous as the more common weapons. I'd rather be good against the routine and commonly faced stuff rather than the uncommon but memorable (obviously if I lose whole squad it is memorable).

I completely agree with all of that. And yes your strategy of list "redundancy" is a great one. It works great with CSM and should work just as well with the more cost efficient Blood Angels.

If I faced this list, I would try to focus fire everything on one of the jump units, and do my darnest to take out the razorbacks early. Seems unwise but I would avoid aiming at the preds(they only fire 3 shots each) with my Anti-tank until the razorbacks are down, I would try to get close range PFs on the preds instead. Or Deep strike behind them.

I seriously had trouble thinking of comments, but I tried to comment anyways! Hope the input is appreciated. If not needed hehe.

Pretty good list my critism would be that its actually 2 lists. 1 list is a standard jumppack list the other a vehicle spam list.

The issue you have is that you are niether fish nor foul. So your opponent is going to get maximum benefit from both his AT and AI fire from the off.

Likewise your assault squads are great but if they are your opponent main concern they are relatively easy to kill. Likewise with the vehicles in both cases due to lack of numbers.

So whilst every unit taken looks good and you've lots of redundancy I'd say against competitive lists you'll struggle through lack of focus which is particulatly the case at 1500 points.

Personally I'd choose between the JP list and have no vehicles or go with razoir and pred spam and have nothing that starts outside a vehicle.

I like it. A jack of all trades list is a tough one to play though. A focused list is easy as you know what to do each turn. It will take some practice with this to make it work, but I think it will work. It makes target priority a pain for your opponent

Coming from 3rd edition where you can assault out of a Rhino, this transition has been really hard. It's really random what happens when you park your Rhino squad next to an enemy squad and hope that it doesn't get blown up. I actually think it would be harder for me to figure out how to actually maneuver 6 squads of 5 guys (standard Razor spam) coming out of a tin box and can't assault. I would really stuggle on when and where to put my men while at the same time trying to fire with said tin boxes. The only thing I can think of is that the guys inside the transport don't really matter compared with the weapons in the turrets.

With the list, generally the Jump ASM will be able to do what they do best. I've tried to shield them the best I can with a 5+ cover save and FNP bubbles. The Predators obviously do what they do best and shoot down range. The Razorback squads I will still have kind of the dilemna of when to move forward, when to disembark, and where to position exactly. However, their role as midfield support that is decently mobile and can go forward or backward (provide Razorback is not dead) should be quite invaluable.

I'd keep the razor's for objective camping and taking out MEQ. Only unload the ASM is you are in danger of being charged. That way the razor can still fire and the ASM can take the assault

Do you feel two HQ's is too big for this game size?

hoya4life3381 wrote:Do you feel two HQ's is too big for this game size?

No, as I have run 2 Libby's at 1750, but I was refering to their costs, 2 Libbys is 200+, those 2 special characters are 400+

What do you think of this one?

Librarian w/Jump pack - 125
Sanguinary Priest - 50
Sanguinary Priest - 50
10 ASM w/Jump Pack, 2 Meltaguns and Powerfist - 235
10 ASM w/Jump Pack, 2 Meltaguns and Powerfist - 235
5 ASM w/Meltagun in Razorback (TL-AC) - 165
5 ASM w/Meltagun in Razorback (TL-AC) - 165
Baal Predator w/HB - 145
Predator w/Autolas - 135
Predator w/Autolas - 135
Total: 1500

The Priests go inside the Razorbacks who have TL-AC to support the ASM advance. The Baal is like a mobile forward bunker that Outflanks onto the board. I've never tried to coordinate Priests in Razors completely with Jump packers . Do you think this will work or is the first list better designed?

You might be better off keeping 1 priest in the razors and giving 1 a JP to keep up with the jumpers, That way you are limited to keeping your jump troops near your mech

I'll be watching this thread, as your list is a lot like the hybrid DoA list I posted below, except that I included assault termies in a stormraven instead of the preds, and only one librarian (who wears terminator armor and hangs out with the termies). My thinking is a lot like yours - the weakness of DoA is that it doesn't provide you with a lot of tools and gives your opponent only one kind of target. Diversifying your list gives you more options and the opportunity to force bad decisions on your opponents.

The problem with DoA seems to be that when your choices are "shoot at marines" and "shoot at marines," there are no wrong choices. When your choices are "shoot down the marines who just landed and meltaed some of my tanks" and "shoot at the razorbacks who are darting about in my extreme range/outside my range entirely and blowing up my stuff," a canny player can arrange it so that both choices are wrong.

I would use the Raz/Preds to screen for you jumpers. FA 13 works well for that. And being that they're fast, they won't slow down your jumpers. If you use the Raz's to screen forwards the TLLC might be a waste. TLHF are free, never miss and are great for hordes (gaunts, scarabs, orks).

I understand your rationale for the AC/Las Preds, but IMHO moving 12" every turn is a huge strength I think you may be overlooking. Yes this means you can only shoot one weapon,but your opp needs 6's to hit which I have found outweighs the ability to shoot. I like Baal preds w/no sponsons. They're a bargain at 115. Statistically, Assault Cannons can crack AV14 better than lascannons (of course you need range) because of TL/rending and they're also great for anti-inf. Plus, you can outflank or flat out in the scout phase (and pop smoke) if you want.

BTW, don't be afraid of AC Dreads. You'll get your armor save and FNP w/the priests.

I'm pretty sure Dreads are vehicles and do not benefit from FNP.

The use of vehicles with lascannons is to push my opponent to come forward. I am not trying to do an all-out rush with ASM and Razorbacks.

I guess the question is from which direction you build the support from. Are you trying to support the ASM in the front and concentrate on short-range shooting? Or are you building from long-range shooting to forward? My list and build is to build with a solid round of long-range shooting first to destroy transports, isolate units, or to force my opponent to come get me.

I think the greatest weakness of my list is that the 2 Libby's + 2 Assault Squads are actually not that amazing at melee. For example, I can not deal with Paladin-calibre units. For the cost of 2 Librarians with packs, I could get Mephiston. Although I would lose the 5+ cover saves, I potentially gain a real melee prescence.

Mephiston
Priest w/Jump Pack
Priest w/Jump Pack
10 ASM w/Jump Packs, 2 Meltaguns, and Powerfist
10 ASM w/Jump Packs, 2 Meltaguns, and Powerfist
5 ASM w/Meltagun and Power Weapon in Razorback w/Lascannon & Plasmagun
5 ASM w/Meltagun and Power Weapon in Razorback w/Lascannon & Plasmagun
Predator Auto/Las
Predator Auto/Las

I could also drop the Power weapons and upgrade one of my Priests to Corbulo and have him go in Razor.

Mephiston
Priest w/Jump Pack
Corbulo
10 ASM w/Jump Packs, 2 Meltaguns, and Powerfist
10 ASM w/Jump Packs, 2 Meltaguns, and Powerfist
5 ASM w/Meltagun in Razorback w/Lascannon & Plasmagun
5 ASM w/Meltagun in Razorback w/Lascannon & Plasmagun
Predator Auto/Las
Predator Auto/Las

Seems pretty nasty, except very character heavy. I'm not really packing a lot of models at this point.

It is a nasty list and will probably play more towards your style than what I was suggesting. When I screen with the Baals, I work for mid range shooting straight up the field with the jumpers behind the tank wall.

In reference to the AC dreads - you mentioned you were worried about GK Rifleman dreads (in these parts 2xTLAC) - I just meant your jumpers would get both armor and FNP is they took shots from these guys.

BTW there aren't a whole lot of units in the game that can deal with Paladins in a mano-e-mano CC. However, I get a great big smile when I think of the time Mehpiston took out a squad of Paladins by himself. Unfortunately, I don't think that happens quite often.

Looks good. Only one thing. Where's the death company? There probably the most lethal thing a blood angel player can have.

DC suffer from Rage and are really hard to control and rely upon. From what I've heard, they have decreased in popularity because of that.

Do you guys feel that the Corbulo upgrade is worth it in the list or just keep standard Priest w/Jump pack and PW on Razor squads?

You don't get fnp against psybolt dreads as they are S8. Plus having tank and infantry targets doesn't force difficult decisions on your opponent . Having lots of similar targets does. Just giving him targets that allows him to maximize the effectiveness of his ai and his at fire is not making life hard for him unless his guns are designed to do both ( i.e. For grey knights, but not many other armies).

hoya4life3381 wrote:DC suffer from Rage and are really hard to control and rely upon. From what I've heard, they have decreased in popularity because of that.

But if you get them into combat they can clear out an objective in one round. Put them in a transport like a rhino to get them to the fighting or deapstrike them in.

thestormlord wrote:

hoya4life3381 wrote:DC suffer from Rage and are really hard to control and rely upon. From what I've heard, they have decreased in popularity because of that.

But if you get them into combat they can clear out an objective in one round. Put them in a transport like a rhino to get them to the fighting or deapstrike them in.

However they aren't scoring so that objective just became empty as they run off after another target.

Don't get me wrong, they are a grert in CC buit there are better options for BA that are more useful

I agree with the sentiment though that the 2 Librarian list was lacking a bit in melee power. That could be solved with the usual suspects of either Assault Termis (expensive with transportation), Furiosos (seem to require some sort of drop mechanism or Stormraven0, or even Death Company. I think Mephiston can sort of fill that role. The regular ASM's will probably beat stuff they would have with or without Unleash Rage. Unleash Rage also probably won't turn them into elite killers.

How do Blood Angels at this points level handle Assault Terminators beside Razorback Spam? They seem pretty strong and impervious to a lot of Blood Angel speed and Furious charge shennanigans.

How do Blood Angels at this points level handle Assault Terminators beside Razorback Spam? They seem pretty strong and impervious to a lot of Blood Angel speed and Furious charge shennanigans.

Actually, DC w/power weapons and a Chappy do very well against the above. 4 attacks on the charge, WS5, S5, I5 re-rolling hits and wounds. Yeah Rage stinks, but put JPs on them and give them a fist or two and they can deal w/just about anything baiting them around the board.

Before anyone says how expensive they are, how expensive are TH/SS Termies or Thunderwolf Cav? Most hammer units aren't cheap for a reason.

BA Assault Termies w/ a Priest are also pretty good. If you take a Chappy. S5, I5 re-roll on the claws. I usually spit my Termies 3LC/2TH-SS. If you put the priest in Terminator armor he gets the invul and a free power sword.

Do you think that having Mephiston and a Librarian w/Shield + Unleash Rage for 375 spent on HQ is too much for 1500? I feel that it kinda of is, but that 5+ cover save for vehicles and infantry seems to go along way.

Here's the revised list:

Mephiston - 250
Libarian w/Jump Pack (Shield and Rage) - 125
Priest w/Jump Pack - 75
Priest - 50 (goes in a Razor)

10 ASM w/Jump Packs, 2 Meltaguns, and Powerfist - 235
5 ASM w/Meltagun in Razorback w/Lasplas - 165
5 ASM w/Meltagun in Razorback w/Lasplas - 165
5 ASM w/Meltagun in Razorback w/Lasplas - 165

Predator w/AutoLas - 135
Predator w/AutoLas - 135

Total: 1500

The LIbrarian and Priest with packs join ASM squad which hides behind the vehicle wall with 5+ cover save. The Razors and Predators form the wall and will concentrate first on taking out transports. Meph and ASM are basically counterchargers and the ASM/Meph/Librarian probably stick together to shield each other.

This list is a little less aggresive since I only have 1 ASM squad and Meph that can go out and get something. It's more based on the shooting core of 2 preds and 3 Razors.

Which list do you think will function better?

I like the list, but I think Mephiston & a Libby may be a lot at 1500 (as you're leaning to).

If you take a 2nd Libby you can put him in a Razoback and shield works 6" from the hull of his transport. You can cover a lot with that. You would probably want to keep your Jumper libby too so you can split your ASMs and your Razorbacks if you need to and keep the cover save on both.

For the 250 you save by dropping Mephiston, you get another 10 man Jumper squad or 2 Baal preds (no sponsons).

Not sure why you have a priest in a Razorback though. I don't think he'll do that much good in there.

hoya4life3381 wrote:I agree with the sentiment though that the 2 Librarian list was lacking a bit in melee power. That could be solved with the usual suspects of either Assault Termis (expensive with transportation), Furiosos (seem to require some sort of drop mechanism or Stormraven0, or even Death Company. I think Mephiston can sort of fill that role. The regular ASM's will probably beat stuff they would have with or without Unleash Rage. Unleash Rage also probably won't turn them into elite killers.

How do Blood Angels at this points level handle Assault Terminators beside Razorback Spam? They seem pretty strong and impervious to a lot of Blood Angel speed and Furious charge shennanigans.

actually basic Asm are favourite to beat assault terminates on the charge. 10 basic guys gives 31 attacks which is 23 hits which is 16 wound then 4 attacks from the priest is another 2 wounds. That's 3 terminates dead. Then the libby has 4 attacks which is 4 hits 3 wounds and another dead termmie leaving just 1 to fight back...

And that's assuming the Asm don't shoot or have any special ccws. Chuck a power weapon on the large and priest and you should wipe them without casualty.

Also you are over looking the main benefit of unleash rage. It's not so much the increased hitting power but the massive increase in reliability.

The problem with Assault Terminators is that I have to get the charge off on them, need URage, and have to have almost all my ASM squad alive. At that rate, you will kill about 2 Termis with standard attacks and hopefully a 3rd with Librarian attacks. The remaining 2 will just have to be dealt with Powerfist hopefully or have been shot to death. I don't like sticking my Priests into combat because they are too easy to pick off. I chose to put power weapons on the small Razor squads to add some more punch there. i could always switch those onto my Priests if necessary.

I've been bouncing back and forth on whether to take 2 Librarians w/Jump Packs or Mephiston for the same cost. One Librarian would have Shield and Rage. The other would have Sword and Rage. I would sort of have Mephiston's abilities and also have Shield to give cover saves which is huge. However, each Librarian is obviously not as effective in combat as Meph is as a whole.

Tough choice and food for thought. I'm leaning towards two Librarians because there's more synergy with the rest of the force. Meph doesn't really provide any synergy other than being a total beast.