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So lately Ive been running a DE duke deep strike list. However, once I land and slag a tank my poor DE are usually on the receiving end of a bunch of double-tapped bolters. Since I dont get an armor save against them, that usually means a lot of my dudes go away real fast, so Ive been honing my "cover grabbing" skills and heres what Ive come up with. If I can position the raider or venom in such a way as to physically be able to shoot under it, would I generate a cover save or is that just not allowed because you cant shoot through vehicles?

You'd generate a cover save if the vehicle blocks LoS.

But any cover save you get from the vehicle, you'd also give to the guys you're shooting at.

If a skimmer can be placed in such a way that you can shoot under it, then yes you can get a cover save from it.

rigeld2 wrote:You'd generate a cover save if the vehicle blocks LoS.

But any cover save you get from the vehicle, you'd also give to the guys you're shooting at.

Im fine with that, im shooting an ap5 gun so 90% of the armies I face off against their armor save anyway.

Also remember that to shoot under the skimmer, your infantry must trace LOS from their eyes to the target models.
Edit: Whoops, I meant:
Generally, if the unit is behind a skimmer and they can still see their opponent, they will gain no cover since less than 50% of the unit is obscured.

pretre wrote:Also remember that to shoot under the skimmer, your infantry must trace LOS from their eyes to the target models. Generally, if the unit is under a skimmer and they can still see their opponent, they will gain no cover since less than 50% of the model is obscured.

Why? Models don't have to be 50% obscured. If an arm, a foot, a leg - a body part - is obscured from view of the firer, the model gets a cover save.

puma713 wrote:

pretre wrote:Also remember that to shoot under the skimmer, your infantry must trace LOS from their eyes to the target models. Generally, if the unit is under a skimmer and they can still see their opponent, they will gain no cover since less than 50% of the model is obscured.

Why? Models don't have to be 50% obscured. If an arm, a foot, a leg - a body part - is obscured from view of the firer, the model gets a cover save.

Cause it is early and I'm not thinking clearly. lol Fixed.

I meant 50% of the unit.

Because if the models eyes can trace underneath the skimmer, the model isn't going to be obscured from the target.

It's really *really* difficult to get a cover save from a skimmer and still fire underneath it.

rigeld2 wrote:Because if the models eyes can trace underneath the skimmer, the model isn't going to be obscured from the target.

It's really *really* difficult to get a cover save from a skimmer and still fire underneath it.

Yeah, I think a lot of folks forget the eye thing.

Basically, the skimmer is higher than you, so the only part of you it is likely to obscure is your head. If your head is obscured, you're not firing at anyone that it is obscured from. If some other part of your body is obscured, it isn't likely from the skimmer (unless you have weird wings curving down at angles and coming back up).

rigeld2 wrote:Because if the models eyes can trace underneath the skimmer, the model isn't going to be obscured from the target.

It's really *really* difficult to get a cover save from a skimmer and still fire underneath it.

However, does it still count as shooting through a model as per page 21 in the BRB?

Heres a link with pics to illustrate what I mean.
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t2370-shooting-under-skimmers

jb7090 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Because if the models eyes can trace underneath the skimmer, the model isn't going to be obscured from the target.

It's really *really* difficult to get a cover save from a skimmer and still fire underneath it.

However, does it still count as shooting through a model as per page 21 in the BRB?

Heres a link with pics to illustrate what I mean.
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t2370-shooting-under-skimmers

You mean this quote?

If a target is partially hidden from the firer’s view by
other models, it receives a 4+ cover save in the same
way as if it was behind terrain.

Your Raider pic - I would not give a cover save - I can see 100% of more than half of the unit.
Your Venom pic - no chance at a cover save.

jb7090 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Because if the models eyes can trace underneath the skimmer, the model isn't going to be obscured from the target.

It's really *really* difficult to get a cover save from a skimmer and still fire underneath it.

However, does it still count as shooting through a model as per page 21 in the BRB?

Heres a link with pics to illustrate what I mean.
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t2370-shooting-under-skimmers

No. Firing through a unit says 'firing between gaps between models in an intervening unit'. If that was a squadron of venoms you were shooting between, maybe.

Also, I agree with rigeld2's assessment of cover that I would grant you.

Thanks guys! Youve been most helpful

Happyjew wrote:If a skimmer can be placed in such a way that you can shoot under it, then yes you can get a cover save from it.

HJ, take a look at a venom's stand, and then how tall the Kabalite Warrior model is in relation. From an enemy's POV on the ground, there is no Cover. I've been running 'em for the better part of 2011, and no matter how much I squat and squint and wiggle my laser pen at 'em, neither venoms, raiders nor ravagers, on their stands, provide cover from a ground shot.

Now, if the enemy is shooting from higher up ... . Otherwise, to jb7090, yer gonna have to deploy those Trublasters behind things and Area Terrain. Like FireDragons, though, don't expect 'em to last.

Or, glue on the 'blade vanes' ... those inverted shark fins to the bottom of the model and then you'll gain some LoS blocking.

As puma cited, page 21 & 16,

puma13 wrote: Models don't have to be 50% obscured. If an arm, a foot, a leg - a body part - is obscured from view of the firer, the model gets a cover save.

.. those extra bits on the bottom will provide a head covering, down to a KW's shoulders.

But really, how many of us DE players are gluing those things on? And raiders, not venoms, although ya could ...

jb7090 wrote:However, does it still count as shooting through a model as per page 21 in the BRB?

Heres a link with pics to illustrate what I mean.
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t2370-shooting-under-skimmers

Only if the target is partially hidden from the firers view by other models.
Or
if a model is firing through the gaps between models in an intervening unit.

firing under a vehicle is not "firing through the gaps between models in an intervening unit." since there is only one model, there can be no gap between models in the unit.

Brothererekose wrote:
Or, glue on the 'blade vanes' ... those inverted shark fins to the bottom of the model and then you'll gain some LoS blocking.

But really, how many of us DE players are gluing those things on? And raiders, not venoms, although ya could ...

Im going to fiddle with it tonight when I get home. If I can reliably drop my warriors out and at least get a cover save against the inevitable volume of bolter fire Im going to try for it.

Depending on your loadout, you may be able to do it by making sure the blasters have LOS and the other guys are obscured.