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Hey everyone, another argument has made itself to my table. Invulnerable saves….

Ok so page 24 of the rulebook says that “the model only gets to make one saving throw” now…on page 20 under invulnerable saves “invulnerable saves are different to armor saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound.”
Ok so now here is what I think and I hope I get a lot of people answering back on this one. I have a player that tells me I have an unfair advantage because I play wolves and I had my terminators with storm shields (remember it’s a lot of points to add shields to an already expensive unit, and I do the same for my thunder wolf cleverly) he tells me I can only make one of my saving throws. So I said, why would I spend extra points on something that does not have a better save throw then my armor? Then I spoke up about feel no pain and things like that. The response given was…it’s just one of those things…he told me look at page 24 of the rule book.

In the rule book under saving (pg 24) throws its talking about a space marine Chaplin who is hit with a weapon that ignores his Armor, he has an invulnerable save, and he’s in cover. So the book talks about he cannot take both the cover and invulnerable save. So I understand that as a player cannot have layers of protection. So can someone please clear this up for me? It’s either A. I am wasting a crap ton of points on shields, or B. This guy just was trying to get an advantage on me.

Unlike Warhammer Fantasy, 40K does not have layers of saves.
Well they do, but thats FNP.

For armor saves , cover saves, invul saves, you always pick the ONE most beneficial for you.

Example.

If you get hit with an AP 2 plasma cannon shot, but you have power armor of 3+ you cant save it. However if you have cover save of 5+ you may use that. Or, if you have some weird wargear that gives you 4+, you can use that.

niether, you can only use one saving throw, so your teminators would have to choose, in normal cases you wouldnt use the storm shield but against ap 1 or 2 weapons and power weapond you will because they take away your armour save, secondly storm shields are awesome they let you have one of the best invulnerablesaves in the game and in CC you will be fighting a lot of power weapons and storm shields will increase the unit's survivability a lot.

You actually dont get to choose - you must take your best save. Against AP3 or worse shooting, or against normal CC weapons, a termis best save is 2+. Against everything else, the 3+ saves you a lot.

Ok, i get that, but on page 20 it says “Whenever the model suffers a wound” so if I am his and fail my armor save…that would be considered a wound….right? hahaha you see where this gets crazy?

Re-read page 24: Models with more than one save.

DeT07 wrote:Ok, i get that, but on page 20 it says “Whenever the model suffers a wound” so if I am his and fail my armor save…that would be considered a wound….right? hahaha you see where this gets crazy?

Armor saves say the same thing. And Cover saves.

You only ever get one save. FNP is special.

Yeah GW had this clear rule that you could only ever have one saving throw...then they introduced FNP to confuse the hell out of people.

FNP isn't confusing. Except in conjunction with things like Hexrifles, etc...

Happyjew wrote:FNP isn't confusing. Except in conjunction with things like Hexrifles, etc...

It is when you have "There shalt be but one save" as a guiding philosophy.

FNP isn't a save.

Well Thank you everyone every much. as always you are all a huge help!

rigeld2 wrote:FNP isn't a save.

Yes it is.

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:FNP isn't a save.

Yes it is.

No it's not. It's not an armor save, invulnerable save, nor a cover save.
It does not convert an unsaved wound into a saved one.
A successful FNP roll ignores an unsaved wound.

DeT07 wrote:I play wolves and I had my terminators with storm shields (remember it’s a lot of points to add shields to an already expensive unit, and I do the same for my thunder wolf cleverly) he tells me I can only make one of my saving throws. So I said, why would I spend extra points on something that does not have a better save throw then my armor? Then I spoke up about feel no pain and things like that.

The reason you spend those points is so you can walk your terminators right up to their guys without them getting picked off by plasma weapons or lascannons, and so they get that 3+ save against power weapons and monstrous creatures. This is what the wolfguard assault terms are used for. You still only get the 1 save throw though.

So if a Terminator with a SS, took a wound from a normal weapon, it couldn't take 2+ then 3++?

I understood it that when a weapon that didn't allow a normal armour save hit a model, and you used you ++ save it wasn't that you have only used one save, its just your normal armour save auto-fails?

Correct - if your 2+ save is allowed, it's the only one you get to make.

Same goes with cover saves? You can't take armour save then cover save?

Just 1 save, you go with the best one. So with the terminators its always going to be 2+ or 3++ if its an AP 2 or armor negating weapon. Dont worry about the cover save as the SS will always be better.

Yes, caveman. You can only take one save.

rigeld2 wrote:

Joey wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:FNP isn't a save.

Yes it is.

No it's not. It's not an armor save, invulnerable save, nor a cover save.
It does not convert an unsaved wound into a saved one.
A successful FNP roll ignores an unsaved wound.

This is like the "there's no such thing as a blast template" thing all over again.
It saves your model from death, it's a save. GW just didn't call it a save because they declared that a unit could only make one save, so in roughshodding all over that they had to avoid use of the word "save".

... Just wow. Are you serious? Or trolling me?

Edit: look, my statement has rules backing. Yours is a poor assumption and is what is causing your confusion.
So if you're going to call FNP a save, please back up your statement.

Joey wrote:GW just didn't call it a save ...

...so it's not.

In a set of rules, what something is called matters.

The game rules list 3 types of saves: Armour Saves, Cover Saves and Invulnerable Saves. FNP is not one of those, nor do the FNP rules ever refer to it as a save. So it isn't a save, it's just an ability that lets you ignore a wound.

While you can categorise it as being close enough to the same thing as makes no difference, all you do with that argument is create confusion where none needs to exist. Within the structure of the 40K rules a save is something that is actually defined as a save. FNP is not.

Technically it lets you ignore the injury. Not the wound. But that's just getting semantical. Is that even a real word? It is now.

Injury and wound have to be synonymous or FNP does nothing.

But that's been gone over in the hex rifle and ES threads about FNP so I'll stop there.