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I was having a discussion yesterday with a friend and he said he wanted to field 4.2" Mortars with his Commando's because anything over 100mm is a "Breakthrough Gun". I think this isn't right because it's not a Gun but a Mortar tube with a high FP value, not a Bunker buster. Equally that would make 12cm mortars Breakthrough Gun's too. It doesn't seem right and I'm leafing through the V3 book trying to find te definitive statement.

I do not have te new rule book (Yet...), but I was always under the assumption that BTGs had to be either vehicle or trail mounted weapons systems. Mortar tubes seems a bit redonkuless.

I say we ask the fellas over on the BF/ FoW forums.

Pg 100 gives the details then references 121 for artillery. but there is no definition of a breakthrough gun, but just a definition of what it does (not what it is!). That makes me think in the Forces Book it will say in the statline of a weapon has this special rule. So for me I'm going to tell him no, unless he can show me a clear reference to this 100mm + rule he seems to have invented.

I also thought BTG was a direct fire weapon only, same as bunkerbuster.

Mat

Answer is in the table on page 117. He's talking *&&%%))(*. If it's breakthrough it's in the stat line. It's not so the answer is no, unless stated in the statline.

I am willing to bet players all over the world will be trying that one out.

It can be Breakthrough gun if he likes since the Breakthrough gun rule only applies to direct fire and 4.2" mortars cannot direct fire.

The British 4.5" howitzer will no doubt become Breakthrough gun as it is for the Finns in Grey Wolf.

Battlefront has indicated that nearly all direct fire guns 100mm and larger will become breakthrough guns. But this isn't hard-coded into the rules. Instead, each gun will be given the rule in their respective entries, or as part of another rule. Because of this, the only guns that currently have the Breakthrough Gun rule are -

- Various Soviet guns that had it under the old, Soviet-only, rules
- Guns in lists from Grey Wolf and/or Red Bear that have the rule in their Armory write-up
- Bunker Busters, which are described in the 3rd edition rules as automatically having the trait

It is important to note that guns that don't fall under the above don't qualify. So an M4(105) doesn't currently get the Breakthrough Gun rule, even though it will almost certainly be given the rule when its stats are updated (whether via a PDF update to Turning Tide or when it first appears in Bulge). Also note that while the StuH 42 from the StuG Batterie list in Grey Wolf gets the rule, the StuH 42 from the StuG Batterie list in Stalin's Onslaught (which is essentially the same list) does not get the rule.


As a result of the above, the only US and British guns that currently get the Breakthrough Gun rule are guns with the Bunker Buster trait.

I think this Breakthrough Gun is a bit too free and easy with it's firepower. Everyman and his dog is going to try and grab them, just roll to hit and it's gone, like the "Cillit Bang" of the FOW community.

Some Weapons (Spigot Mortars) and bunker busters are fair enough, but to say anything over 100mm is a bit too much for me to stomach, a Bunker Buster is a very specific weapon system usually comprising a specialist charge or Ammunition with a specialist gun system. Brumbar's, Sturm Tigers, Churchill AVRE with the flying dustbins are all good examples of Bunker Busters, but to base this capability solely on the calibre of the Weapon is over simplisitic.

But hey ho, it's too late now. This is how the meta game will change, BTG spamming...(BRITS with 8 Gun Batteries of BTG's in direct fire mode is too dangerous to even contemplate!).

There really aren't that many weapons of over 100mm that aren't already Bunker Buster and even fewer are above RoF 1 (the StuH is RoF 2 iirc). The US 105 is probably the most prevalent one that has not already had it's rules changed.

Brit players are already bemoaning their lack in this department. Good luck actually fielding an 8 gun battery of BTG guns with the Brits as 8 medium guns require a prerequisite platoon of 25pdrs. Remember that the 25pdr is only 88mm or so. Bunker Buster guns (like the medium gun) also have additional targeting restrictions if they move.

I would be much more worried about some of the German lists and multiple access to 105s rather than any Brit list.

I think the CT list in Cassino has at least 2 slots of CT 105s like just north of 150 points plus the Italian 10.5 tank hunter (ROF 2 as well).

I mean if you really want to BTG a list out.

BTG still doesn't work in an artilery bombardment and still won't do anything to armored vehicles.

My guess is that the following guns that are not already Bunker Buster will gain Breakthrough gun.

M2A1 105mm Howitzer (Mid-late US)
M7 Priest (Mid-late US & British)
105mm M4 Sherman (Late US)
British 4.5" Howitzer (Early British)

There's a bunch of Italian stuff too with which I am not terribly familiar.

Here are the one's I'm wondering about.

Germans

10.5 recoiless (bunker buster on a light stand)
10.5 howitzer

Itallians
Semovente 105/25

Those two German guns are what would bother me as, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, they really weren't "breakthrough" guns in the general sense and definately not bunker busters.

A light breakthrough gun just doesn't sit right, and I play FJ!

Shotgun wrote:Here are the one's I'm wondering about...

Both the LeFH18 105mm howitzer and the LG40 recoilless howitzer for the FJ's are definitely BTG (not Bunker Buster) in Grey Wolf. Both are RoF 1 with low, 24" and 16" respectively, direct fire ranges.

Having fielded the LeFH18 the BTG rule really only comes up in defensive fire against infantry. At any other time you'll be using bombardments.

That does not mean that they cannot be BTGs. I don't think BB and BTG have to go hand in hand. That makes them very scary, but I am sure that some of these weapons with the new rule will only have the BTG rule. Anyone with Grey Wolf confirm?

I had looked at a post on the FoW forums about Wespes and Hummels gaining the BTG. I've four Wespes for my armd arty battery, so I will hear the moaning from my Eastern and Western Front opponents.

Reading the german arsenal in Grey Wolf, i cannot find one unit that has BOTH BB and BTG. For example, the Wespe gets BTG for its direct fire, and nothing for indirect (apart from smoke bombardment.) The Hummel gets BB for direct, nothing for indirect. I know BTG allows no saves on inf, not sure what BB does actually (hits every team in a building?) but this book leads me to believe the two rules are mutually exclusive, ie; BB doesn't have the effect of BTG as well. Guns over 100mm aren't automatically BB/BTG, it must state it in it's arsenal statline.
i mean, driving up and firing at ROF1 with those wespes, causing maybe two infantry stands to insta-die, isn't like the greatest thing ever.

Exhumed wrote:Reading the german arsenal in Grey Wolf, i cannot find one unit that has BOTH BB and BTG.

That is because the Bunker Buster rule gives a gun the Breakthrough gun rule as part of the Bunker Buster rule.

mwnciboo wrote:I think this Breakthrough Gun is a bit too free and easy with it's firepower. Everyman and his dog is going to try and grab them, just roll to hit and it's gone, like the "Cillit Bang" of the FOW community.

The Soviets have had them for years now. Stalin's Onslaught introduced the Breakthrough Gun as a Soviet-only rule years ago. The only difference now is that it's being made available to other nationalities as well.

And really, I think the big direct-fire guns in this game could use the boost. How often do you see a StuH 42 or an M4(105) on the game table? These vehicles had the guns that they did so that they could take out dug-in soft targets with direct fire. But the base infantry save makes it hard for them to hurt those kinds of targets. And with the way that the firepower system works, the armor-piercing weapons used by their stable-mates are almost as effective. This rule essentially gives vehicles like the StuH 42 and the M4(105) a reason to exist on the table.

Some Weapons (Spigot Mortars) and bunker busters are fair enough, but to say anything over 100mm is a bit too much for me to stomach, a Bunker Buster is a very specific weapon system usually comprising a specialist charge or Ammunition with a specialist gun system. Brumbar's, Sturm Tigers, Churchill AVRE with the flying dustbins are all good examples of Bunker Busters, but to base this capability solely on the calibre of the Weapon is over simplisitic.

This isn't a blanket rule. The high velocity super anti-armor weapons for the most part aren't going to get it. iirc, it actually applies to 100mm+ weapons and not 105mm, but everyone thinks of the latter because the Soviet SU-100 (which mounted a high-velocity 100mm gun for anti-tank work) famously didn't get the rule. iirc, other 100mm guns, like the Romanian 100mm artillery, did get the rule.

But hey ho, it's too late now. This is how the meta game will change, BTG spamming...(BRITS with 8 Gun Batteries of BTG's in direct fire mode is too dangerous to even contemplate!).

Not really. A gun battery is still just a bunch of gun teams. If your opponent wants to sink his points into a massive battery of artillery, and then run those guns up to the front lines so that they can direct fire (remember, most artillery gun teams have a range of 24"), then you'll have plenty of ways to tear them apart. This is only really going to be useful for the armored assault guns, like the StuH 42 and the M4(105) (the big Soviet SP guns already had it...) that can survive some basic return fire, and the German 15cm infantry support gun (which has a very limited range... and ROF 1).

Whatever they do I PRAY they do NOT give it to my 15cm SP schlepper howitzers. Time and again, my opponents close in on them, thinking "next turn, I can whip around that rock and kill em" and then I do the same first, with AT13, 1+ FP, all I have to do is hit on a +1 !! Then stormtrooper back

Don't they already have Bunker Buster?

Matt Varnish wrote:Whatever they do I PRAY they do NOT give it to my 15cm SP schlepper howitzers. Time and again, my opponents close in on them, thinking "next turn, I can whip around that rock and kill em" and then I do the same first, with AT13, 1+ FP, all I have to do is hit on a +1 !! Then stormtrooper back

If they have Bunker Buster, then they're already in trouble. The V3 rules change Bunker Buster to prohibit things like firing on the move at mobile targets. If they don't have Bunker Buster, then you're safe.

Given that they're 15cm guns, I'm guessing that they do have Bunker Buster. But I'm not familiar with them so I don't know for certain.

A quick look at Earth and Steel (p#206) says they already have Bunker Buster.

So no targeting vehicles that aren't bogged or bailed if it moves.

Ouch for Hummels and 15cm Schleps.

Mat

combat engineer wrote:Ouch for Hummels and 15cm Schleps.

Mat

More ouch for Brummbars. There's a strong suspicion that this rule might have been put in place specifically to do something about Brummbars, which were being added to lists by players largely for ahistorical use as heavily armored mobile tank killers (FA9, AT13, FP1+).

The ISU-152 is also impacted by this. But it has a 32" range on its guns, and decent armor, which makes it easier for the ISU-152 to get good shots enemy tanks. The Brummbar, which only has a 16" range, will have a much more difficult time shooting at enemy vehicles without the enemy cooperating.

I'll be playing my first game of V3 on Thursday. I'll be packing Brummbars in my list.

I plan to use them as mobile pill boxes behind a screen of infantry to prevent my infantry being assaulted by tanks.

Brummbars are very prevalent in my gaming group playing v2. So I expect more of the same, I'm still not sold on the BB/BTG thing, because the one grants the other to many players are getting confused with this. No doubt in 3-4 months everything will have settled down. Most players at my club are sticking with v2 at the moment as we have a couple of tournaments coming up and they are using v2 and don't want to confuse themselves with v3. Hopefully the Tournament in May will be V3.

@Eumerin, I take your point on there are more ways to skin a cat and I should be able to neutralise BTG units with good tactics. The scary thought for me is that I am running a Mechanised Infantry force and unless I can get a few Puma's or AT units to neutralise the BTG totting units my Infantry will suffer, and suffer badly. Combined with with the Enemy taking Airpower, I'm going to have to move quick, bring AAA with me and hope that there is alot of terrain on the board.

Just think of Bunker Buster as the next step above Breakthrough Gun. It's not that hard.

Brummbars are incredibly cheap for a FA 9 AT 13 vehicle. I see myself using them quite a bit still.