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A Necron CCB with an overlord embarked is hit with a penetrating hit.
A weapon destroyed or immobalised is rolled on the vehichle damage chart.
The Necron player chooses to use Symbiotic repair to "negate the result" by taking a wound on the overlord.

Does the CCB lose quantum shielding?

I thought yes initially, until I read...

Q: If a vehicle with Quantum Shielding passes a cover
save against a penetrating hit, does it lose the bonus to
its armour value? (p82)
A: No.

I then re-read the cover saves section (p21 BRB) and the the vehicle rules (p62 BRB) and was unsure.

I can see an argument for it being a timing issue. One the roll is made on the vehichle damage chart, the QS have been lost. But the overlord is a different unit than the CCB and it was what ulimately took the wound. I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this.

My intuition would say that QS is lost by the time Damage Results are rolled, and therefore the CCB cannot get it back by negating the damage.

In other words, if you successfully make a save against a Penetrating Hit, the Hit is discarded (in loose, non-rules terms, the Penetrating Hit "never happened"), thus QS is retained.

On the other hand, negating damage does not discard the Hit, it just discards the roll on the Damage chart, which is a separate event. Thus in that case, QS is lost.

/2cents

P.S. Somebody else will probably be along shortly to make a better case on way or the other.

Symbiotic repair specifically negates the result, not the hit. The shields are gone.

It's definitely a weird case, but I think that the Quantum Shielding is lost. Rulewise, the Symbiotic Repair is allowing you to negate the damage from the hit, not the hit itself. Fluffwise, I'm also looking at the name of the rule - Symbiotic Repair. Repair here suggests to me that the hit definitely 'happened' - enemy units have punched through your shields, you've repaired the damage, but shields are still down.

I agree with the above, the shields are lost. In that case the prerequisitive for losing the shields is a penetrating hit. That hit got you to activate the symbiotic repair rule. So both effects (losing QS and Symbiotic repair) have the same trigger so they both resolve together.

copper.talos wrote:I agree with the above, the shields are lost. In that case the prerequisitive for losing the shields is a penetrating hit. That hit got you to activate the symbiotic repair rule. So both effects (losing QS and Symbiotic repair) have the same trigger so they both resolve together.

It's not the same trigger. One triggers on a penetrating hit, one triggers on being immobilized.
Penetrating hit, shields are lost. (potential cover save to reverse this)
Roll on damage table, immobilized, SR.

foolishmortal wrote:A Necron CCB with an overlord embarked is hit with a penetrating hit.
A weapon destroyed or immobalised is rolled on the vehichle damage chart.
The Necron player chooses to use Symbiotic repair to "negate the result" by taking a wound on the overlord.

Does the CCB lose quantum shielding?

I thought yes initially, until I read...

Q: If a vehicle with Quantum Shielding passes a cover
save against a penetrating hit, does it lose the bonus to
its armour value? (p82)
A: No.

I then re-read the cover saves section (p21 BRB) and the the vehicle rules (p62 BRB) and was unsure.

I can see an argument for it being a timing issue. One the roll is made on the vehichle damage chart, the QS have been lost. But the overlord is a different unit than the CCB and it was what ulimately took the wound. I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts on this.

The FAQ is clarifying that the penetrating hit must be successful. It must damage the vehicle. So, no it does not lose the Quantum Shielding because it was negated by the Symbiotic Repair. The same goes for successful Living Metal rolls, or anything that prevents the result of the hit.

1) You rolled a successful penetrating hit. (the FAQ clarifies that this is not enough to remove quantum shielding.
2). Cover save?
3). Living metal?
4). Symbiotic Repair?

If the hit was prevented in any way, it does not remove QS.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

The FAQ is clarifying that the penetrating hit must be successful. It must damage the vehicle. So, no it does not lose the Quantum Shielding because it was negated by the Symbiotic Repair. The same goes for successful Living Metal rolls, or anything that prevents the result of the hit.

1) You rolled a successful penetrating hit. (the FAQ clarifies that this is not enough to remove quantum shielding.
2). Cover save?
3). Living metal?
4). Symbiotic Repair?

If the hit was prevented in any way, it does not remove QS.

But the hit WAS successful. It wasn't prevented. The hit occurred, and the vehicle actually did take damage. At that point, QS was lost.

THEN, Symbiotic Repair was used to change the end effect. But QS had already been lost, and it doesn't come back.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

The FAQ is clarifying that the penetrating hit must be successful. It must damage the vehicle. So, no it does not lose the Quantum Shielding because it was negated by the Symbiotic Repair. The same goes for successful Living Metal rolls, or anything that prevents the result of the hit.

1) You rolled a successful penetrating hit. (the FAQ clarifies that this is not enough to remove quantum shielding.
2). Cover save?
3). Living metal?
4). Symbiotic Repair?

If the hit was prevented in any way, it does not remove QS.

But the hit WAS successful. It wasn't prevented. The hit occurred, and the vehicle actually did take damage. At that point, QS was lost.

THEN, Symbiotic Repair was used to change the end effect. But QS had already been lost, and it doesn't come back.

Actually Symbiotic Repair "negates the result." It does not negate the hit. I must agree with you.

Living Metal "ignores" the result, so I don't believe a hit saved by Living Metal removes QS.

I was on the other side of this issue earlier, but I now think that neither symbiotic repair nor living metal will maintain the quantum shielding. The primary influence for me was the necron faq language about cover saves and QS, and the following from p62 BRB "If the save is passed, the hit is discarded and no roll is made on the Vehicle Damage table"

It's not iron clad, but the reverse is likely true. Once a roll has been made on the Vehicle Damage table, you lose QS.

I can see possible semantics arguments for a penetrating hit with no result not counting as "suffering" but I would need a better line of argument before I gave it more thought.

It really seems like other than a save that stops the roll on the damage table you would lose QS against things that roll on the damage table because they just allow you a chance to ignore specific effects on the vehicle damage table.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:It really seems like other than a save that stops the roll on the damage table you would lose QS against things that roll on the damage table because they just allow you a chance to ignore specific effects on the vehicle damage table.

Exactly - cover saves allow QS to stick around because the penetrating hit is discarded. Getting rid of the immobilization/stun doesn't discard/negate the penetrating hit, just the roll on the damage table.

It's even a little worse for the symbiotic repair and living metal as they only negate the effects of a result on the damage table, so it was still definitely a glancing or penetrating hit.