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Hey guys, I ran into a problem in a battle the other day with some CSM.

I had a unit of Necron Warriors being led by an Overlord, a Lord, and a Harbinger of Eternity. The Harbinger had a Chronometron, and the Overlord had a rez orb.

The unit had been shot down to just 2 men, the Overlord and the Lord. The warriors Reanimation Protocols counters were removed, however the Everliving counter for the Harbinger was not. The standing Overlord and his Lord failed their morale check and began running.
For the sake of this question, let's just assume that the Chronometron allows for a single D6 out of the 2D6 used in a LD test to be rerolled. I know that's a topic of debate, but let's assume both players are OK with that ruling.

Here is the part I and concerned with: Can the Chronometron's special rule be used to allow the remaining models a reroll on one of the D6's in their Morale test, after the Cryptek has fallen down but before the everliving counter is removed?

I believe it can for the following reason:

The Rez Orb was recently FAQed to say that when a model wielding it dies and is now represented by a counter (Everliving), both he and the unit he was joined to are still able to benefit from the Rez Orb's ability to reanimate on a 4+ instead of just 5+.
-This suggests that a piece of equipment held by a Necron model with Reanimation Protocols or Everliving continues to be present on the field, and part of the unit it was in, until the representative counters are removed.

Following this, then a Chronometron is subject to the same rules, as it is a piece of equipment being held by a model that may reanimate in the current phase.

The wording of the Rez Orb FAQ is as follows:
Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase?
A: Yes

Nothing in this FAQ states that the Rez Orb is the only equipment that functions like this. The only thing I can see for why the Wargear would no longer work is in the Rulebook, where it says models removed as a casualty no longer have the wargear on the field. However, in the case of Necrons, it's apparent that this is not entirely the case when considering Reanimation Protocols/Everliving counters since the Rez Orb completely ignores the Rulebook's take on wargear.

What's your take?

IF you allow the reroll of one D6, as opposed to 1D6 roll, then I see no reason to not allow it

A strong, logical argument. I would agree with you. (except for the Ld test part, but that's another issue.)

Good job!

I would say not, because the Chronometron wargear does not specifically effect the RP or EL rolls. The model is dead and out of play so it's wargear goes with it.

The Res Orb specifically works on the RP rolls and EL rolls for the dead model holding it and has been FAQ'ed as an exception to also work for the dead models unit.

1) The Res Orb rule states it can effect a models EL role (while removed from play).
2) The FAQ clarifies that it can also effect its units RP and EL rolls too, but it is already working while the model is dead.
3) Other wargear has no such allowance to work while dead, so it would not work on its own EL roll or that of any other model while the model holding Chronometron is dead.

I would not take this FAQ as setting any precedent for removed from play models to be able to use war gear.

Phylactery.

Proven wrong again....

The FAQ proves that an EL model still has unit attachment while off the board, whic is logical and is the only way for a lot of Necron stuff to work.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Phylactery.

Proven wrong again....

The FAQ proves that an EL model still has unit attachment while off the board, whic is logical and is the only way for a lot of Necron stuff to work.

Is that word proof? Did you even read my post? A carefully constructed argument would perhaps lend some proof.

Phylactery is a wargear that like Res Orb specifically mentions that it works while the model is out of play. There is no rule that grants Necrons an exception to the normal rules of play where most wargear does not work while a model is out of play.

Actually it doesnt specifically mention that it works while out of play, it is just necessary for it to do so in order for it to function at all.

I'm not convinced that the necron faq entry on res orb can be used to make a blanket statement that necron wargear functions until after the RP/EL roll.

The phylactery is not the best of examples either since it only functions if the EL roll succeeds.

The closest parallel I can think of off hand is a chronometron with an off the board Immotekh. The answer there is no.

It only functions while the model is still out of play, without an explicit allowance to do so.

foolishmortal wrote:I'm not convinced that the necron faq entry on res orb can be used to make a blanket statement that necron wargear functions until after the RP/EL roll.

The phylactery is not the best of examples either since it only functions if the EL roll succeeds.

The closest parallel I can think of off hand is a chronometron with an off the board Immotekh. The answer there is no.

Res Orb and Phylactery specifically interact with RP and EL in ways that require them to work when the owner is removed from play. Chronometron does not. So no, likewise it does not work in this case.

It's a mistake to think an explicit rule is required for every exception. Many rules simply state that a rule works differently than the standard BRB rule without mentioning the rule they change. In 40k there is no such requirement that a rule must explicitly or specifically mention the rule it overrides.

The Phylactery rule says a model that passes it's RP roll returns with D3 wounds. Of course only models making RP rolls are all removed from play so it is implied that it works while it's owner is dead.

Chronometron has not such requirement or language. There is nothing that implies it works while the owner is off the board for any reason.

Unless it specifically says it must do, such as with SA, rerolling part of a 2D6 roll, etc

foolishmortal wrote:The closest parallel I can think of off hand is a chronometron with an off the board Immotekh. The answer there is no.

Out of curiosity, why is the answer no? The Necron FAQ says he can reroll using the Chronometron, and he isn't required to be on the board for night fight to take place. Imagine he and his unit are in a transport, and thus not on the board. Does he not get the benefit of using the Chronometron then? What if an Overlord is shooting a Tachyon Arrow out of an open-topped Ghost Ark, and inside of the unit he is embarked with is a Chronometron-wielding Cryptek? Does the Overlord not get to use the benefit of rerolling a miss, a failed penetration, or a damage roll?

foolishmortal wrote:I'm not convinced that the necron faq entry on res orb can be used to make a blanket statement that necron wargear functions until after the RP/EL roll.

As for this, the problem with arguing that it cannot be used as a blanket statement is that the alternative blanket statement has been broken. The alternative is "Wargear goes away when the model is removed as a casualty", however since the Rez Orb continues to function (and the phylactery doesn't disappear, and thus is capable of proccing when he comes back), the only precedent left is that models with RP or EL continue to hold the wargear on the field while their counters are present. In addition, the fact that the Chronometron doesn't affect any specific roll (and rather works on whatever you want) makes no impact on whether or not it can still be used. Essentially, the question is whether Necron equipment continues existing on the battlefield or not while it's wielder is a counter on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also want to point out that there is a plethora of wargear that models continue to retain while they are merely counters on the table, and are able to use once they've stood back up. Every gun, every piece of armor, mindshackle scarabs, and so on, continue to be wielded by the models while they are counters on the board. Otherwise, using the blanket statement "Models lose their wargear when they are removed as casualties" would render reanimated Necrons of any kind useless after they've stood back up, since their guns are called "wargear".

Mustakha the Undying wrote:Hey guys, I ran into a problem in a battle the other day with some CSM.

I had a unit of Necron Warriors being led by an Overlord, a Lord, and a Harbinger of Eternity. The Harbinger had a Chronometron, and the Overlord had a rez orb.

The unit had been shot down to just 2 men, the Overlord and the Lord. The warriors Reanimation Protocols counters were removed, however the Everliving counter for the Harbinger was not. The standing Overlord and his Lord failed their morale check and began running.
For the sake of this question, let's just assume that the Chronometron allows for a single D6 out of the 2D6 used in a LD test to be rerolled. I know that's a topic of debate, but let's assume both players are OK with that ruling.

Here is the part I and concerned with: Can the Chronometron's special rule be used to allow the remaining models a reroll on one of the D6's in their Morale test, after the Cryptek has fallen down but before the everliving counter is removed?

I believe it can for the following reason:

The Rez Orb was recently FAQed to say that when a model wielding it dies and is now represented by a counter (Everliving), both he and the unit he was joined to are still able to benefit from the Rez Orb's ability to reanimate on a 4+ instead of just 5+.
-This suggests that a piece of equipment held by a Necron model with Reanimation Protocols or Everliving continues to be present on the field, and part of the unit it was in, until the representative counters are removed.

Following this, then a Chronometron is subject to the same rules, as it is a piece of equipment being held by a model that may reanimate in the current phase.

The wording of the Rez Orb FAQ is as follows:
Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase?
A: Yes

Nothing in this FAQ states that the Rez Orb is the only equipment that functions like this. The only thing I can see for why the Wargear would no longer work is in the Rulebook, where it says models removed as a casualty no longer have the wargear on the field. However, in the case of Necrons, it's apparent that this is not entirely the case when considering Reanimation Protocols/Everliving counters since the Rez Orb completely ignores the Rulebook's take on wargear.

What's your take?

I would say no. While you may have an argument that GW may be establishing a precedent with the Necron Res Orb FAQ, that particular entry is to narrow in scope. I would be more inclined to agree with you if GW went beyond a simple 'Yes' and expanded on models being allowed to use wargear when removed from the table.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mustakha the Undying wrote:

As for this, the problem with arguing that it cannot be used as a blanket statement is that the alternative blanket statement has been broken. The alternative is "Wargear goes away when the model is removed as a casualty", however since the Rez Orb continues to function (and the phylactery doesn't disappear, and thus is capable of proccing when he comes back), the only precedent left is that models with RP or EL continue to hold the wargear on the field while their counters are present. In addition, the fact that the Chronometron doesn't affect any specific roll (and rather works on whatever you want) makes no impact on whether or not it can still be used. Essentially, the question is whether Necron equipment continues existing on the battlefield or not while it's wielder is a counter on the table.

With a permissive rule-set I don't think you can make this level of abstraction.

Mustakha the Undying wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also want to point out that there is a plethora of wargear that models continue to retain while they are merely counters on the table, and are able to use once they've stood back up. Every gun, every piece of armor, mindshackle scarabs, and so on, continue to be wielded by the models while they are counters on the board. Otherwise, using the blanket statement "Models lose their wargear when they are removed as casualties" would render reanimated Necrons of any kind useless after they've stood back up, since their guns are called "wargear".

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that models removed from play continue to wield their weapons and armour. Mindshackle Scarabs are a poor example as their affect is only triggered when the model is 'in play'. Even if the model that successfully used the scarabs is subsequently removed the shackles are still in effect and to not need to be, nor are they required to be, activated by the removed model. The assertion is not that, "Models lose their wargear when they are removed as casualties", it's that, "Models (unless otherwise specified) cannot use their wargear when removed from the table.

-Yad

Yad wrote:The assertion is not that, "Models lose their wargear when they are removed as casualties", it's that, "Models (unless otherwise specified) cannot use their wargear when removed from the table

This is not a perfect parallel, but it is food for thought.

40k BRB 5th ed Update p5
"Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule."