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Tactics wise everything should be pretty self explanatory. I wont say anything otherwise besides this army would look sweet on the table. Forgeworld SW Vulnerable for Bjorn, 2 x Contemptors for his bodyguards, and FW dozer blades. TWC by Mr. Dandy. The question is.... is it a competitive list. I mean really competitive. Ugh just realized I had to rearrange it due to points, but I will still give it a shot...



Alternatively I could tighten it up by taking out some grey hunters and adding more razorbacks



These are over in points.... scroll down for accurate ones

Liked the first list better

I think Bjorn is too expensive for what you get. The other Dreads seem a little confused on their setup.

I like the first list but would make a few changes.

- The two Dreadnoughts will footslog. They don't need the heavy flamer if they stay far and use their Lascannons.

- Swap a Dreadnought for a squad of Wolf Scout just to throw a potential wrench into the opponent's plan.

- The all ML LF squads. I was never a blind believer. I prefer a more balanced weapon mix. 2 x ML, 2 x Las, 1 Plas for those pesky terminators or other crap that gets too close.

If you squeeze some Lascannons in your LF you can make your Dreadnought a Rifleman dread. Cheap, plenty of range and dakka for the price.

The two Dreadnoughts will footslog. They don't need the heavy flamer if they stay far and use their Lascannons.

I sort of agree, but they do serve a purpose. I kind of see the Dreads as playing half back depending on the opponent. Somewhere between the forward grey hunters and the long fangs. The heavy flamers are an elegant solution to the Wolf Scouts you mentioned earlier .

Swap a Dreadnought for a squad of Wolf Scout just to throw a potential wrench into the opponent's plan.

I love Wolf Scouts and generally see them as indispensable, but in this list I need all the ranged fire power I can get without sacrificing the units that I really want in the list (TWC and the Dread mob). If scouts could come in turn 1 then maybe. I am at the very least entertaining Bjorn's go first advantage.

The all ML LF squads. I was never a blind believer. I prefer a more balanced weapon mix. 2 x ML, 2 x Las, 1 Plas for those pesky terminators or other crap that gets too close.

Believe

I appreciate all of the CC so far thanks for responding.

~Casey


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some self criticism:

My concern is that it lacks lascannons for being a Bjorn list and that in my experience with other less fruity feeling lists is that the 6th troop choice changes how I play with them significantly. I'm hoping to scrum the middle hard core though and I think that is something this list can do well. Both mech and DoA BA worry me as do Death Wing. I know many are not a fan of the Bjorn but besides being admittedly over costed he is no slouch. I think those 3 Dreads and the TWC could really ruin someone's day if they don't put an end to them quickly. I'm pretty new and honestly have never played a really legit competitive tournament along with the hordes of GK and venom armies. Does this have the ability to keep up? If not is it possible to build a good list around the dreads and TWC or should I forget this stupid idea and move on to something a bit more conventional

~Casey

Honestly I consider both lists interesting and whatever but still far from an optimized setup that will really compliment a heavy investment like Bjorn.

I will try to point which are the basic arguments that let lists like the famous "Reecius Bjorn gun-line" win so much tournaments and in general show a very solid and balanced build.

1) First of all Bjorn. If you really want to deeply develop his abilities, or better, the bonus he give to the list you'll have to MAX out your shooty power. This is really mandatory.
Luckly the SW codex looks exactly what you need in this case and super cheap/effective units like Long Fangs and MSU Grey Hunters packs on razorbacks gives you the perfect examples.

2) If you will correctly invest on the shooty capability of your list you will inevitably lack in close combat, there isn't too much things you'll can do about it but customize some of your units to cover these holes in the tactic. IE, and you did it right, the unusually tooled Dreadnoughts.

3) Choices like Thunderwolves and/or Terminators wouldn't give you the close combat boost that you are thinking so necessary. VS Grey Knights they wouldn't help you much in anycase (instakilled by force weapons and or shooted down wound by wound by torrents of psy ammonitions/cannons). VS Dark Eldars they will risk to run around the table covered by a rain of envenomed bullets that completely get rid of the powered thoughness.
In fact they will just steal points and FOC slots.

Just to talk about something "concrete" I will write here the Reecius Bjorn 2000 pts list, or at least the more recent version:

HQ - Bjorn - HF on DCCW - Plasma Cannon. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Jaws Of The World Wolf & Storm Caller. 100
EL - Dreadnought - HF on DCCW - TL Lascannon. 145
EL - Dreadnought - HF on DCCW - TL Lascannon. 145
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - TL Assault Cannon Razorback. 155
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - TL Assault Cannon Razorback. 155
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Heavy Bolter Razorback. 180
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000

As you can see the list is virtually splitted in 2 halves, at least for the role that the units will have to cover on the field.

Profiting from the Bjorn's ability that allow you to start first almost 75% of times you have something like:

1x Plasmacannon
3x Heavy Bolters
1x TL Heavy Bolter
21x Missile Launchers
4x TL Lascannons

This will let you over-shoots almost any army around (with the exceptions of some IG builds, Venom spams, TAU Suites spams, and eventually a particular BA Razorspam+Devastator...), in anycase you will more than often start first with MORE bullets, that you'll can even direct on MORE targets (13..).

The objective obviously is to soften the adversary army the more you'll can and most of all cut down is mobility targetting every vehicles in LOS.

Besides, SW have also Searchlight on almost everything, another thing that you will certainly like in case of night fight (solar pulse, dawn of war deployments..).

Done this fase the opponents will have to choose if try in any case to reach you on your side of the table or play defensively hoping to save the day.

In the first case, if he will come to your lines, you'll be able to trow at him:

3x Heavy Flamers
2x Meltagun
2x Flamers
2x TL Assault Cannons

..plus obviously all thestill available precedently mentioned weapons.

In fact you really have a devastating shooty potential, something that in 80% of the cases will help you soften almost every kind of target preparing it for a collective multicharge maded by almost everything you have. IE the Dreadnoughts (so why the strange combo Long-Range-TL Lascannon + DCCW and not a ML..).

Units like the Dreads will also be your sweet love vs hordes/mobs when you will certainly need to tarpit enemy formations or large units before they will hurts you seriously.

I will add also that in fact it isn't a complicated setup to be used, once understood the mechanics behind unit's sinergies you will easily start to profit of the varius bonuses.

The only one tricky thing is the use of the Rune Priest, inevitabyl limited by the kind of transports available in the list and consequentely the psychic powers he have.

Storm Caller, for a nice 5+ cover save if the scenery doesn't help you that much and most of all if you'll face another effective gun-line. In this case he could be placed confortably behind your armors or on terrains, everytime out of LOS if you'll be able to.

Jaws of the World Wolf if you'll have to try a suicide action to hunt down units like low-I Monstrous Creatures, if you'll want to try sniping special tooled characters in units (PK Bosses in mobs, PF Sergeants in Marines units, etc.). In this case he will have to mount on a razorback and jump outside when and where necessary. With or without a unit whit him.

Space Wolves are a defensive codex. OR you will build up close combat list that will hugely invest on Thunderwolves and Terminators (and in this case you wouldn't take Bjorn for sure) OR you will play defensively on your shooty power, building a 24" zone-of-death.

The deployment would be inevitably hugely important with a Bjorn list.

This don't want to be a Lode to Reecius list, in fact i didn't use it in all my games, but for tournaments or highly competitive situations this is the best setup I tested so far and finally yes.. Lode at the Reecius Bjorn list.

I advice you to contact him via PM for further infos on the Bjorn tactics he use.
I also advice you to find a very nice article maded by JustDave here on the forum (articles) that give some very on-point descriptions and evaluations of the SW codex unit by unit, even if he isn't a uber Bjorn's supporter. this will eventually help you taking different roads if the Bjorn's pro/cons wouldn't compliments your play style.

Excuse me for the bible-like reply I just wrote.. lol

I've seen Reecius' Bjorn list and it's definitely the way Bjorn should be run. No doubts there. Maximize firepower and use the turn 1 boost to its potential. You are right that the TWC will not add a serious CC element. I am not going for a death star. I think the 2nd list is actually a bit better because of the added lascannons. I am sort of yes and no on speeders. 6 more missiles that can contest objectives and take side shots would be great. It is something I will probably have to come to terms with after my TWC get shot up a few times. Jaws/Storm Caller vs. Living Lightning/Tempest is another toss up in my mind. Seeing as the priest will probably be in a forward unit it may be better to take Jaws/Storm Caller. Tempest has been amazingly helpful to me though. It screws with a lot of armies. If my list was against Reece's list I think I'd get pretty torn up in the beginning of the game, but I am hoping I would recover when we meet each other in the middle. Truthfully I would expect to get my ass kicked for now seeing as I am just a learner and he is a master. If it came down to a yes or no question.... is this list (first or second) viable or should I be choosing between shooty or assault and not the middle ground?

~Casey

Unfortunately I must tell you OR shooty OR assault. SW codex doesn't give you the elements to play on both roles competitively.

Second list to me, with some minor changes but second list.

As I told you I don't use Reecius list because of a lot of reason but most of all becasue lately, been soon father for the first time, I missed so so many tournaments and the situations would certainly go on this way for a while.

For casual games so I almost every time use this list:

HQ - Bjorn - Heavy Flamer on DCCW - Plasma Cannon. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Jaws Of The World Wolf - Storm Caller - Wolftooth Necklace. 110
EL - Dreadnought - Heavy Flamer on DCCW - TL Lascannon. 145
EL - 5x Scouts - Meltagun - Mark of The Wulfen. 100 {I}
EL - 5x Wolf Guards:
- {I} PF/Combi-melta;
- {II} TH/Combi-flamer;
- {III} Combi-melta;
- {IV} Combi-melta;
- {V} Combi-melta. 160
TR - 8x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - Mark Of The Wulfen - Wolf Standard - Rhino w/Dozer Blade. 190 {II}
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75 {III}
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75 {IV}
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75 {V}
FA - Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter - Typhoon Missile Launcher. 90
FA - Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter - Typhoon Missile Launcher. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Heavy Bolters - TL Lascannon Razorback. 190
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000



Jaws Of The World Wolf
1x Plasma Cannon
4x Combi-meltas
2x Meltagun
2x Heavy Flamers
1x Combi-flamer
3x Flamers
4x TL Lascannons
7x Heavy Bolters
14x Missile Launchers

But, again, if I would have to play in a tournament (and I will play to win for sure) I would take the Reecius list with some very little changes.

The middle ground is where Space Wolves excel.

Shooting: We're a Space Marine army. It can't compare with Imperial Guard or Tau. It can be fairly potent and nasty, but its not truly the same scale. No artillery, blast weapons are comparatively weak. We can put out a lot of single high strength shots, but only from a handful of units or at the expensive of a healthier body of troops.

Assault: Outside of two ICs, we have nothing that is Init 5. Outside of Ragnar Blackmane we have no access to Furious Charge. We have no access to Feel No Pain (just Lone Wolves). Most assault oriented armies are Init 5 or better. Either all the time or on the charge. This is a fairly huge disadvantage.

On the plus side, we have as many attacks as most close combat specialists (3/model) and can bring a comparable number of special close combat weapons (Grey Hunters can bring a Power Weapon and Mark of the Wulfen, attack a Wolf Guard with another, and an IC with yet another). Of course, too many special attacks and you get diminishing returns thanks to wound allocation. I hate seeing 4 power weapon wounds turn into 1 power weapon casualty before armor saves are rolled.

But without the Init bonus it doesn't really matter. If a squad of 10 ASM with FC and FNP charge your pack of Grey Hunters, Wolf Standard or no Wolf Standard you are losing that fight. If you strike at the same time, things would go your way, but then against other assault specialists, say Genestealers or Halberd toting Grey Knights, you're going to suffer even with Furious Charge.

There are just some things Space Wovles (including Thunderwolves) do not want to get into hand to hand with.


Anyways, with all that said I would just tweak your 2nd list from your original post:

Bjorn (1 w/ Plasma Cannon)
Rune Priest (1 w/ Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane)
x1 Dreadnought (1 w/ TLLC, Heavy Flamer)
x1 Dreadnought (1 w/ 2 TLAC)
x2 Grey Hunters (5 w/ 1 Meltagun, Rhino)
x3 Grey Hunters (5 w/ 1 Flamer, HB Razorback)
x2 Land Speeder Squadrons (1 w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer)
x3 Long Fangs (5 w/ ML, TLLC Razorback)

Puts you at 2000/2000. Personally I prefer some larger Grey Hunter squads, but this does bring a healthy amount of firepower. Quick inventory highlights:

1 Living Lightning
2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
4 Twin-Linked Lascannons
3 Heavy Bolters
1 Plasma Cannon
2 Multi-Meltas
15 Missile Launchers

In total you can hit 16 Armored targets. This is usually overkill. Especially given how many of the shots are Twin-Linked. What you were/are really lacking is ranged anti-infantry. The Heavy Bolters on the Razorbacks can contribute to that (you'd be surprised how much you can do with 9 S5 AP4 shots on BS4) while still protecting your scoring units. The Land Speeders can contribute as well with their Heavy Flamers and of course you have Bjorn with his Plasma Cannon that's pulling double duty thanks to his high BS.

And again, since anti-infantry is where you are weak, picking up a Heavy Flamer on the Dreadnought isn't bad (especially vs other Space Wolf players) nor is grabbing some more flamers on your Grey Hunters. Living Lightning and the Rifleman Dreadnought can hit infantry too, and Murderous Hurricane can shut down an enemy assault pretty solidly once they get close.


Really, there are a lot of ways to go about it and all of them will work to varying degrees. Unless you plan on travelling the country/world for tournaments, just tweak it to fit the games you are playing. You know your local meta better than anyone here.

I have come to realize that my points I believe were way way off. As far as space wolves go there are 2 things that I think are a must, which are double melta squads and long fangs. Without them you might as well be using codex marines. TWC and scouts kick butt too, but they are less necessary. That being said here is my take on a shooty Bjorn list. Is it as shooty? No. It is however more balanced and puts more chasis and melta between the opponent and your backfield fire power.

Bjorn
-Plasma Cannon
-HF on DCCW

Rune Priest
-Storm Caller
-Jaws

2 x Dreadnoughts
-TL Las
-HF on DCCW

3 x Wolf Guard
-Combi Melta

3 x 5 Grey Hunters
-Melta
-Rhino with dozer blade

2 x 5 Grey Hunters
-Flamer
-Razorback with Las/Plas (since this is carrying troops I think the las/plas would be preferable as it is more resilient to weapon destroyed results)

2 x Land Speeders
-Typhoon Missile Launcher
-Heavy Bolter

3 x 5 Long Fangs
-4 x Missile Launchers
-2 x Razorbacks with TL Lascannons

Total = 1995 pts.

So I am short 5 ML shots (that's a lot!) and 1 Las shot on turn 1 compared to Reecius' list. On the upside I would be gaining 3 melta hunters that are not useless. Not too shabby. I could put TWC in if I drop the speeders and 1 dread. I am not sure if that is wise though. Would this suffer against horde armies? In your experience if you have 3 melta hunters who quickly get in range, drop a target, and die.... do you have enough left to stop the enemy from getting to your shooty elements? That is my fear and think that a more solid midfield presence is valuable. No space wolves list will have much more shooting than Reecius' but I just can't fathom going against a wall (10-12) chimera chassis with only 2 mobile troop units. He must have experience that says otherwise or else he would not be consistently using his list. Either way I think Bjorn is an interesting asset to a SW army. I really want to utilize him and the 2 body guards so that I can justify getting some kick ass models for them. Sadly I am not a fan of the speeder models. I would have to drop the LF transports and the speeders to fit TWC in. In a Bjorn list I do not think it's worth dropping that much firepower. Cool discussion guys thanks for the advice.

~Casey

Not to beat a dead horse or pull something from the grave but... any other comments on this? I played against a CSM army using a bunch of proxies and it performed pretty well although Bjorn was assaulted turn 2 or 3 by a daemon prince and didnt last the turn... double 6 on the damage table. Christ.