Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello,

I made a post about a CSM army a few weeks ago, and it's been so overloaded, that I'm making a new post for clarification.
The old post can be found at: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/428426.page

What I'm wondering is:

1) Use vehicles or just run? Those 3+ armor saves seem nice.

2) Use defilers or not? The 72" range is nice, i play on a table that that would reach all but the diagonal corner, but I heard they are the first target.

3) Oblits? How many?

4) Termies? How many? I plan to convert termies to oblits.

5) Daemons? Summon them to the melee units?

6) Greater Daemons?

7) HQ?

8) Other?

Please Note: I have many bits, but no legs or bases. My current models include a LOTR Balrog (which could be a DP or Greater Daemon), a Chaos Sorcer, 16 Khorne Berzerkers (Possibly convertible), and a dreadnought (Black Reach model, converted to look like it was tortured by Chaos).

Also, I will be playing 1500 point games.

Dr. What wrote:Hello,

I made a post about a CSM army a few weeks ago, and it's been so overloaded, that I'm making a new post for clarification.
The old post can be found at: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/428426.page

What I'm wondering is:

1) Use vehicles or just run? Those 3+ armor saves seem nice.

2) Use defilers or not? The 72" range is nice, i play on a table that that would reach all but the diagonal corner, but I heard they are the first target.

3) Oblits? How many?

4) Termies? How many? I plan to convert termies to oblits.

5) Daemons? Summon them to the melee units?

6) Greater Daemons?

7) HQ?

8) Other?

Please Note: I have many bits, but no legs or bases. My current models include a LOTR Balrog (which could be a DP or Greater Daemon), a Chaos Sorcer, 16 Khorne Berzerkers (Possibly convertible), and a dreadnought (Black Reach model, converted to look like it was tortured by Chaos).

Also, I will be playing 1500 point games.

1) Vehicles allow you to quickly contest points, or, protect your troops from small rounds fire. The front armor of a rhino can't be penetrated by a bolter, while your Chaos Marines can be brought down.

2) Defilers are questionable for their points cost, and if I remember correctly, aren't barrage, so they still have to have line of sight to the target.

7) The prefered HQ seems to be 'lash' princes, which allow you to move the enemies models. This can help you get enemies into a better position to shoot them, for example.

The other areas I'm not familiar enough with chaos to answer what's competitive, but, this is what i could add on.

I want a lash prince.

My logic though is: 4 squads of CSM = 40 marines or 4 rhinos. As the shooter, which target would you prefer?

1. Vehicles are good for protection, mobility, can be used empty to contest, close off paths of movement, etc.
2. Defilers are ok but I run them with as many ccw as possible and just use the canon. That way if the canon is broken I have a fleet dread. Though I'd only run 1 or 2.
3. Oblits typically run in squads 2-3.
4. I dont typically run them below 2k.
5. They can be used to hold objectives but theyre not that good.
6. Theyre ok but dont want to lose the fist etc.
7. dp wings with lash is the prefered but nurgle prince wasnt bad either.
8. Chosen can be handy outflanking with plasma or melta.

Dreads typically run with no guns so they dont decide itd be fun to shoot you with their plasma canon etc.

Beserkers can be handy in a land raider or rhino but need to be kinda careful since they can lose to ba assault marines, gk, etc.

What if just one or two rhinos are used?

Just to run some marks up there, summon all of the daemons, then shoot the leftovers?

To attempt to answer a lot of your questions with my opinions.
1. I've been attempting to use only three rhinos, and it seems to be the magic number for me in 1500pts.

2. No to the defilers. x2 Oblits are way better any day.

3. As stated above, always take at least two in a squad.
sidenote:
Minimum:
x2 Obliterators
Maximum:
(x2)x3 Obliterators. I honestly would never field more than 4 or 6 oblits under 2k points.

4. I would save your elite choices for Chosen, oblits > terminators for the price. Again, I've never fielded more than x3 terminators and only to deep strike / suicide an elite/hq/hvy squad.

5. My favorite way to summon LDs is Chosen CSM,
Minimum:
x6 Chosen CSM, x2 Melta, IoCG= 138
Maximum:
x8 Chosen CSM, x3 Melta, IoCG, PW(or PF) = 199-209

6. I think that if you efficiently price all of your army, and if your already fielding two DP's than hell yes, that's warrant enough to add a Greater Daemon.
Again, my favorite deployment measure is x2 squads of chosen with champions. Make sure they're both at least 6-8 strong and cheaper. Have at least x3 champions in a 1500pt match with a GD.

7. Take DPs. Honestly they're still super freekin strong for they're point value. Even lowly DP+wings = stat chart madness compared to other MC, AND other HQs in space marine armies. I personally love Kharne as well but he's very special to use.

8. Use the Balrog model only for Greater Daemon, if you plan to use Daemon Princes just buy the new plastic models, they're a lot more proper sized, also both models look great, the plastic one being the cheaper of the two.

Endnote:
My favorite HQ is DPs
My favorite ELT is Chosen
My favorite TRP is cheap CSM
My favorite Fast Attack is NOTHING
My favorite HVY is Oblits

Just what I've used, and they've always done what I expected them to.
With a lot here I've just posted what I would use as a bare minimum and maximum, obviously the specific depend on the player and the list. So don't feel like these are "static" numbers or something. Just parameters more like it.

1.) yeah, rhinos aren't necessary. If you have a lot of other vehicles in your support section, then they provide target saturation, but otherwise they're as much of a liability as a benefit for a CSM army.

2.) defilers are only AV12, and are HUGE targets. Difficult to find cover for, and difficult for your opponent not to notice and shoot at. I personally pass on them because their threat:survivability ratio is too high, but I know they get sprinkled into lists here and there, especially ones that have a lot of other similar targets like GD's, DP's and dreads to compete for targets with.

3.) oblits are good for everything except for the amount of firepower per point they put out. I like them, and so would include 2 (or 4), but I wouldn't go over two units of them, as that third slot should probably go to havocs or some other HS option that's a little more killy per point.

4.) there are three ways to run termies. The first is a min-sized squad with 3x of the same combi-weapon using deepstrike deployment. They're basically a cheap suicide unit. The second is a bulked-up version of this. Perhaps 6 termies with 5x combi-weapons, a chainfist and a pair of lightning claws. Still deadly with the combi-fire when they arrive by deepstrike, but can actually weather abuse in return. The third way is to take at least 6 and maybe a mark and some more serious close combat upgrades and put them in a land raider. This is pretty expensive, though, and so is pretty rare.

Basically I like to think of them as like obliterators, except instead of starting the game off shooting, they start the game off the board. Turn 3, both are messing things up, but the termies are doing it at short range and higher risk on the other side of the board. Think of them as a better version of sternguard or stormtroopers.

5.) summoned lesser demons are the most efficient way to put down close combat attacks in bulk in the entire codex. Unfortunately, you're probably not in need of extra close combat attacks as you play CSM. They're still nice for making non-scoring units (like havocs) scoring units.

6.) As for greater demons, they should probably only be taken if you've already taken your full compliment of demon princes and you just... need... one... more...

7.) DP's are obviously good, being able to cast psychic abilities like a sorcerer, but being able to hit like a lord, and with +T and eternal warrior to boot. Of course, the one thing you lack is the ability to hide in a squad, so they're pretty easy to pick out. They work well when you're providing a bunch of other stuff to shoot those missile launchers and lascannons at, but otherwise...

There are some other decent cheap options like a sorcerer with gifts or a lord with lightning claws with or without terminator armor. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of force multiplication ability in your HQ slots (other than lash), so these guys are basically relegated to the role of either cheap, crappy beatstick, or expensive CC monster. The sorc and lord are the former, kharn and abbadon are the other.

8.) CSM has some of the best troops choices in the game. If you're not spending at least half of your points on troops, you're doing something wrong. Also, remember that CSM is a force concentration army, so they tend to do better with fewer, bigger squads, rather than more, smaller ones.

What about a land raider instead of rhinos?

It could be a taxi for anybody, great cover, and could tank shock basically anything but SMs off of the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And @Koski, you need personal icons to summon daemons, there don't seem to be any in your "daemon summoning list."

If you're going to bring a land raider, you need to bring at least two. While you're there, you might as well bring three.

One alone is just too much of a target, unless you've got stuff that you KNOW will take railgun, lascannon, and deepstrike melta away from your raider.

Not sure if I misposted? Maybe I edited it away after you posted, but I have icons everywhere I think. But yeah, IMO I agree with Ailaros. Land Raiders are just a little too expensive for what they do.

Yeah it's a cover save but your CSM squad is going from 205-255 in a rhino, to almost double 390-445 a squad with a LR. So the argument for "better squad protection" is completely mute considering it costs the same as an entire extra squad. The weaponry of a LR, price wise, doesn't really match the killy of other heavy support as well.

What is a suggested 1500 list then? I have 1 dreadnought, a sorcerer, and some KB and PM...I can proxy what else i need for the time being, especially oblits.

Khorne Zerks and Plagues marines work very well together.

I'm sure others would have more experienced comments for you but from what I've manged to mass together about CSM is this.

Try to take A lot of troops
Try to fill out all the hvy support slots
Don't get too expensive on the HQs (If your taking two)
Bring lots of anti-transport weapons since it's plain hard to get with CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I believe you may have dropped in on this thread once already, but here's my 1500csm lists that I've been getting comments on the last week or so.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/430145.page#3929146

Mostly all I can say is that the list I posted near the bottom is the closest to what "I am happy with" for 1500pts all-comers. Obviously it's always up for discussion and changes though haha.

Final note: I don't know if it's a good idea, but maybe taking LoS on the sorc would be cool? You can "shoot" it out of the rhino, and LoS seems to be the best psyker ability for CSM atm. Maybe you can get away with only 1hq and then loadup on troops and hvy?

Here's a test army. I actually called GW about it.

Chaos Sorcerer MOS, LOS, Personal Icon, Melta Bombs

Chaos Lord MOK, Daemon Weapon, Personal Icon, Melta Bombs

Greater Daemon

12 Lesser Daemons

2 Rhinos Daemonic Possession, Dozer Blade, Combi-Weapon

Khorne Berzerkers X9 Champion, 1 with Personal Icon

Noise Marines X5 Champion with Doom Siren, 4 (Including Champ) with SB, 1 with Blastmaster, PI

Obliterators X2

Dreadnought Plasma Cannon

Defiler Havoc Launcher





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, I intend to sit back and shoot with the defiler.

The noise marines will take a rhino with the sorcerer to get to cover.

The berzerkers will take a rhino with the lord to get up to the lines and take out the nastier opponents. All daemons will (hopefully) arrive to the front lines.

The noise marines will help to knock out the more dangerous targets. Then, I simply use a rhino to move the noise marines/berzerkers to objectives as needed.