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ok, so just finished listening to the audiobook version of deliverance lost and seeing as none of my friends finished it yet.... I turn to dakkadakka.



so yeah, am I missing something or what?

I didn't even realize that Raven Guard geneseed was considered to be unstable in 40k. I mean sure, it has the same range of 'quirks' that a lot of the other first founding chapters have, but I don't think it's actually getting worse as in the case of the Flesh Tearers and other BA successors.

Deliverance was lost....

Yes, mr thorpe altered the setup. Without a good reason. Because the RG can't use the original source of this geneseed, Chaos can't as their "share" was ruined , and the thiefs are also most likely not able to use it since 10 millenia would have shown some effect if they could.

Instead of a expansion of the existant background , we have a replacement and a Primarch that may not leave as the reason to has been deleted.

1hadhq wrote:Deliverance was lost....

Yes, mr thorpe altered the setup. Without a good reason. Because the RG can't use the original source of this geneseed, Chaos can't as their "share" was ruined , and the thiefs are also most likely not able to use it since 10 millenia would have shown some effect if they could.

They're just setting it up so that in 40k, 60% of the space marine chapters are from the Ultramarines, but the remaining 40% are all Alpha Legion.

well I guess... in theory they can still do that cloning thing corax wasnt too keen on in the book later during the heresy which in turn would lead to the same outcome we're already familiar with? I dont know....
as it stands, it sounds like they (unintentionally) left the ravenguard in a position to remain a relevant force in 40k despite what that ward person claims

Well, no. The story from the outside is unchanged: "Corax dabbled in altering the Geneseed and caused mutations".

Only a select few within the Legion know the truth, or suspect it.

Raven Guard Geneseed has never been unstable as far as I am aware, so no. There were still Raven Guard that weren't created using the sped up process, which they stopped after the mutants started appearing.

It's always been the case that it was Corax dabbling with the Geneseed that led to the mutations that drove him to flee to the Eye of Terror, which in a way is still true, as they don't suspect the Alpha's involvement in this if I recall.

there was a bit of fluff regarding most of the ravenguards geneseed coming from terra because their own wasn't reliable (no longer valid as the alpha legion didn't succeed in destroying the ravenguards geneseed in deliverance lost).
on top of that, I always got the impression corax felt immensely guilty because he created entire HORDES of gibbering monstrosities, in deliverance lost they're talking about... maybe 1000 raptors of which only a part was mutated to such a point they couldn't function as normal legionaries. to me that sounds like it shouldn't be so big a deal?
granted its still pretty gakky, but we're talking about a dude that lost around 70K troops at istvaan and just shrugged it off and regularly makes tough calls that gets people killed.

IA: Raven Guard

The gene-seed of the Raven Guard is far from stable and a great deal of their gene-stock has become irreparably damaged, perhaps as a side effect of the accelerate gene-harvesting techniques employed many millennia ago. As a result, much of their genetic material has to come from Terra and therefore the cycle of recruitment for the Raven Guard is much slower than other Chapters.

So you would be correct in your initial post Manesni. I guess the stuff on Terra is what they use as it's the most stable, with least chance of mutation.

On the numbers it doesn't say but give this.

Barely one in ten of these abominations could even hold a bolt gun and yet amongst these there might be one in a hundred whose genetic structure was stable enough to develop into a fully-fledged Space Marine.

The dungeons below the Ravenspire echoed with the howls of the Apothecaries' creations, bestial monstrosities who hungered for battle, and Corax agonized as to what should be done with them. He decreed that none should discover the terrible price his Legion had paid in order to survive and his final solution was to personally administer the Emperor's Peace to each and every one, praying for their, and his own, souls as he did so.

I think you do have a point though. It doesn't seem to be as bad a situation in Deliverance Lost, unless the genetic stability of the Raptors decreases over time.

Also this is from the IA article

After the massacre of Istvaan V, the Raven Guard had to make to do with older armour and equipment.

Didn't the Raven Guard get the newest suits in Deliverance Lost?

yeah thats another point that bothers me....

supposedly the ravenguard has to make due with older stuff due to losses at istvaan...
but then they go and say that kiavahr has the same output as a modest forgeworld (and was used during the great crusade to equip the whole legion)

in deliverance lost it IS stated that the MK VI manufactorums on kiavahr were being attacked by... (the order of the dragon?) but that they were holding. so whats up with that?

Pilau Rice wrote:Raven Guard Geneseed has never been unstable as far as I am aware, so no. There were still Raven Guard that weren't created using the sped up process, which they stopped after the mutants started appearing.

It's always been the case that it was Corax dabbling with the Geneseed that led to the mutations that drove him to flee to the Eye of Terror, which in a way is still true, as they don't suspect the Alpha's involvement in this if I recall.

The only way that Corax wouldn't suspect the Alpha Legion is if he's a drooling moron. There were what, four or five of them actually IN the bunker where the primarch material was being developed, they went on a rampage at the end and made off with the modified geneseed (or was it the primarch material itself) and all the data that the Raven Guard had on it (not to mention they deleted original records), and there's the rather obvious issue that the new Raptors are either perfect uber-Astartes, or they're straight up mutants. There's nothing gradual, which should be a clue that something major happened to the geneseed.

You can't sell a Primarch looking at even those most obvious pieces of evidence and not thinking that maybe the Alpha Legion guys might have been up to a bit more than skulking around and setting up an insurrection on the planet.

daveNYC wrote:
The only way that Corax wouldn't suspect the Alpha Legion is if he's a drooling moron.

Talking swords spring to mind

We discussed this over here Dave
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/427682.page

It would be a bit dim of Corax to not put the two together but from what I remember this was the case.

I suppose there's always the possibility that this was just the first of two, and in the second Corax becomes desperate after hearing about the siege of Terra, trying the same thing again without the Emperor and this is what leads to the hordes of mutants and Nevermore.

daveNYC wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Raven Guard Geneseed has never been unstable as far as I am aware, so no. There were still Raven Guard that weren't created using the sped up process, which they stopped after the mutants started appearing.

It's always been the case that it was Corax dabbling with the Geneseed that led to the mutations that drove him to flee to the Eye of Terror, which in a way is still true, as they don't suspect the Alpha's involvement in this if I recall.

The only way that Corax wouldn't suspect the Alpha Legion is if he's a drooling moron. There were what, four or five of them actually IN the bunker where the primarch material was being developed, they went on a rampage at the end and made off with the modified geneseed (or was it the primarch material itself) and all the data that the Raven Guard had on it (not to mention they deleted original records), and there's the rather obvious issue that the new Raptors are either perfect uber-Astartes, or they're straight up mutants. There's nothing gradual, which should be a clue that something major happened to the geneseed.

You can't sell a Primarch looking at even those most obvious pieces of evidence and not thinking that maybe the Alpha Legion guys might have been up to a bit more than skulking around and setting up an insurrection on the planet.

For the record, the Raptors, one of the few Raven Guard successors, who left largely unharmed during the whole geneseed debalce because they were a still a Scout Company when the whole Istvaan thing etc happened.

Source: Imperial Armour 10

Urr yeah, except for the fact that the raptors were the direct result of corax's genetic manipulation results (see deliverance lost).
Granted, the first... 500 or something? had no problems, but everything after that had massive problems.