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so i play Cryx from time to time and i really only play my friend who has Khador

we generaly play smaller games, less then 15 pts and i usually end up getting beat

so i am asking dakka if you can help me come up with a good 15 pt list to beat khador, he generally plays all warjacks

here is my idea
2 Ripjaws
Leviathin
2 Machine wraiths
Goreshard the bastard


Leviatin shoots baiting the jacks in
2 ripjaws charge one of them hopefullly doing a lot of damage
Wraith takes control of another warjack and goes after his caster
Wraith takes control of another warjack and goes after his caster

meanwhile leviathin shoots whatever it can

and if all else falis send in goreshard pull his feat and use the bane thralls for an assasination run

any suggestions?

marmaduke wrote:
and if all else falis send in goreshard pull his feat and use the bane thralls for an assasination run

This hasn't worked in the past?

Sarcasm aside, what caster is he using mostly? This matters as most Khador casters can handle all Jacks at 15 points. I don't want to give you bad advice (say for Harkevich) and find out you have to deal with Karchev.

NOTE: VERY LONG POST THAT OP SHOULD FIND VERY HELPFUL

I echo what Casper says(what is he using exactly), but I have a few more questions.

1. Are you using Terrain? Sadly this makes a huge difference(imagine no terrain vs Cygnar they just shoot and laugh)
-Khador jacks usually have no access to pathfinder and are really slow, thus you can use this to your advantage in many cases even at lower points(especially if you have a harrower/leviathan) and he only has melee.
2. Are you playing with a scenario(say Mangled metal or even Killbox)?
-Without a scenario many things can occur that don't seem right(my most common example is Caine shooting and running, essentially making himself nigh unkillable to your army, but he can slowly wittle away).
3. What model options do you have?
-do you own the models you want to use in the list above?
-do you use proxy models or are you looking for things to buy specifically?

Now that those questions are over, some general advice(and yes Goreshade the Bastard was my first warcaster ever).
1. Goreshade's feat at this point level is pretty insane, but the banes will almost always fail in hitting a warcaster(minimum def 14) and thus killing them. To solve this you MUST knockdown a warcaster with either a slam(as simple as hitting a khador jack or any jack into the warcaster and most of the time the warcaster is right behind the khador jack wall) or headbutt the warcaster using a warjack(much less likely, but even a ripjaw can do it!!!!). After this is done, the caster is autohit by melee attacks...hence you move or charge goreshade at a model( for charing even friendly are fine and remember you must end in melee range). He can then pop his feat and place the banes in a position to charge his knocked down caster and those banes decimate pretty much any caster unless they have 20+ armor. Remember you can run the Deathwalker up to get -2 def to the enemy warcaster if you are trying to headbutt or slam them directly.

2. Goreshade is a highly confused caster and this is why hes the worst in cryx by... a lot.
Now lets examine him as a whole to see

General Stats:
-deathwalker is pretty cool, great aura, can come back, can be used to block charge lanes for free
-7 focus is great, top end average focus
-solid speed
-solid defense stats with a great defense and a decent armor, albeit its a bit low, but he can use focus to boost it, but hes on a medium base which is a big deal since hes way easier to hit and cryx has no medium base infantry of note
-great feat at low level
-weapon has reach and a good power

Spells:
Bleed- basically worthless(its just the general dmg spell all warcasters get to hit incorporeal or things only hittable by magic)

Hex Blast- rocks for upkeep removal on enemy models OR your own, albeit its a bit expensive. The dmg it does is irrelevant

Mage Blight- Most expensive spell in the game, pretty good, but the expense makes it very situtational(can also get bypassed by arcnodes AND non-living casters like the deathjack or Wolds, etc). Should really be 1 focus less tbh

Shadowmancer- probably his most useful spell, but sadly its non-upkeepable and due to the ability to generate banes(who have darkshroud) the darkshroud part is semi-worthless, really it should just of been stealth to the whole battlegroup and upkeepable

Soul Gate- There was an Errata on this making it worse, but its overall a decent spell, maybe a bit expensive though

So stats wise hes pretty solid, he can even get the job done in a pinch, but hes not a mid line caster even then, hes too easily killed since hes on a medium base. To solve this medium base he has Shadowmancer, but that means hes losing 3 focus a turn so ugh. All his spells cost a ton(3, 5, 3, 3) and he has no upkeeps meaning he can't even cast his signature spell(mage blight) if he plans to do anything else really(running a jack included) let alone casting 2 of the spells from his list(shadowmancer and soul gate) in a single turn. Add to this that Shadowmancer and Soul Gate are all Self or CTRL meaning the Skarlock can't cast either.

Hes overall EXTREMELY focus starved just to cast SPELLS(and he needs to cast shadowmancer to not die against range on that medium base), let alone run A jack or even two. Also his spell list is pretty shoddy as he can't cast Mage Blight and Shadowmancer in a single turn(let alone Mage Blight leaves him extremely exposed even with camping the other 2 focus).

So he can't run jacks and his most useful spell(shadowmancer) affects his battlegroup(himself, jacks and the deathwalker), so if he takes a bunch of infantry the spell he has to cast to stay alive(shadowmancer) doesn't help them. See the dilemma?


Ok so I spent all this time telling you why hes terrible(feat aside at low points), so how can he be good?

Well hes only good at low points(namely 15 since thats the lowest). He can't run jacks, but he can bring infantry(full bane thralls + UA are 11 points) who are incredible. You can bring 4 pts more of other stuff(usually tartarus) and 6 points from his warjack points(Ripjaw or a slayer). With this you can then spam mageblight and prevent your opponent from casting spells and using his feat at low points(which is incredibly strong). The only thing that will just destroy you is Arcane Tempest Gunmages + UA since they can see stealth and destroy banes with ease. Besides them the army is solid against a lot of stuff, since you have a ton of weapon masters with darkshroud, plus curse allows for extra movement and mat. They can still get crushed from trample, but its still a solid army overall and is what I think people fear along with his feat at low points.(essentially a whole 5 point unit that can be placed in a good spot, add in tarturus for his curse and they are quite insane on anything, let alone living under the Deathwalkers aura since its essentially a Mat 10 P+S 13 weapon master able to charge and by in melee range of anything 10.5" away).

Overall even with him being my first warcaster I ever bought, I quickly switched to trying others(namely because I played against Caine1 and ATGM a lot since the one really experienced guy I knew was a douche), but I also played against Menoth(kreoss who would put up lamentation and laugh at Goreshade since he can't cast anything) and I was 100x happier. I didn't play against khador(guy used butcher man-o-wars, and juggernauts) until I was using other stuff like Denny1, and Skarre1 and 2.

Possible 15 pt Armies

(1) General Purpose
Goreshade
-Deathwalker
-Ripjaw(or Slayer)
Full Bane Thralls + UA
Tarturus

This army allows goreshade to spend minimal focus(and cast Mage Blight vs melee armies, or Shadowmancer vs ranged) to invest in it and relies solely on your effective P+S 13 weaponmasters to do the deed, while not dieing due to tough.

(2) Mangle'd Metal/Jack Based
Goreshade
-Deathwalker
-Deathjack(this model is really expensive and imo isn't worth getting for new Cryx players, so proxy'ing this guy is well worth it to test it out first)
-Seether(you should definetly own one of these imo as its a great jack, very focus efficient making it great at lower points and even at higher for a lot of casters, and at the least you need 1 for the eventual withershadow combine trick).

This army is considerably different then the one above, infact its probably my favorite goreshade army. The seether and deathjack each get focus every turn, thus are very focus efficient. The plan is a bit more complex then the above army. Essentially you advance the army under shadowmancer(vs ranged) or mage blight(vs melee only) and are casting this literally every turn. Against most khador armies(non-vlad1, Karchev, or strakov) you should get the first strike with an ideal 1 focus allotment to the seether, 3 to the deathjack, and 3 to cast shadowmancer. The deathjack with shadowmancer should destroy any single jack, and a seether with 2 focus can charge for free, hit with a claw(free boost to dmg from charge), hit with tusks(boost to dmg), then hit with the final claw(boosted to dmg) allowing you to then do a two handed throw from grab and smash(knocking down their warjack and maybe even another) and overall doing a decent amount of damage to a khador jack(if not kill another factions jack).

So worst case your opponent has 3 juggernauts(best case he has only 2 jacks and the deathjack simply laughs and destroys the more expensive one like Beast 09, Drago, or the Behemoth), you can essentially destroy 1 and decommission another(ideally destroying the ice axe arm or even better the cortex) leaving the warcaster and 1 warjack to try and finish it, but you put goreshade a bit far back so he can't be charged by the last jack or warcaster, but can charge your opponents warcaster if they charge either if your jacks(in this case you can pop feat, run/charge a bane at their warcaster, then charge their warcaster with goreshade using his full 7 focus as the bane will provide Darkshroud, making goreshade an effective P+S 16. Thus putting you in a great spot.

OK so what if your opponent is using Karchev, Vlad1, Strakov, or even Harkevich(thus has the speed advantage with the first three or is equal speed with Harkevich). Well in this case you can pop your feat early(sounds dumb, but hear me out). You can then use the 6 bane thralls to block charge lanes for your opponent, so essentially even though they have greater speed(staying out of the mage blight range means vlad1 and strakov can still pop their feats, move in, and get the charge. With the thralls there to just block lanes(and attack/provide darkshroud so you can now not have to cast it on your charge turn and instead give the seether 2 and camp 2 yourself) you can pretty much insure first charge for yourself once again.

Also remember to keep the deathwalker alive in these small engagements and position it by a warjack(so if his warcaster charges it they get -2 str) and you can get that huge -2 def on their warcaster also.

Overall don't be afraid to use the banes to simply run and provide darkshroud or block charge lanes(thus requiring them to somehow die before your warjacks/caster can be charged) instead of as an assassination.

OK, as for my final quip...the leviathan is among the worst jacks in all of cryx(and except for Skarre2 imo the worst jack in cryx besides the corruptor) for goreshade(it simply requires 3 focus a turn allocated to it due to its RoF 3 and goreshade just can't afford that). Let alone it tickles Khador warjacks.

SilverSaint wrote:[b]
Also remember to keep the deathwalker alive in these small engagements and position it by a warjack(so if his warcaster charges it they get -2 str) and you can get that huge -2 def on their warcaster also.

Overall don't be afraid to use the banes to simply run and provide darkshroud or block charge lanes(thus requiring them to somehow die before your warjacks/caster can be charged) instead of as an assassination.

I second these. II would even wager throwing the banes into his jacks when you initially get the charge to try to finish off any that you didn't scrap already.

Pretty much everything Silver said about pShade is correct. He is a very confused caster overall. He wants to like warjacks, but he doesn't have the focus to do it and doesn't really have a way to mitigate that. His feat spawns more infantry, but he doesn't really have much to offer them except for his girl's -2DEF aura. Granted the aura is great, but not nearly as reliable as say Crippling Grasp or Icy Grip.

Are you bound to pGore at the hip, or are you open to perhaps another caster? Do you have the basic battle box? If not it's not necessary to buy, but if you do then pDenny is an absolutely brutal caster for Khador to come up against.

As a Cryx player, I wholey endorse pDenny vs Khador, especially jack heavy Khador, at 15 points.

As a Khador player I cry inside vs pDenny at 15 pts....crippling grasp on a single khador jack(you gotta take a least one) at 15 pts just isn't fair as you just remove 1/2 the khador army ><, let alone if its Beast 09 or the Behemoth.

Kirbinator wrote:Pretty much everything Silver said about pShade is correct. He is a very confused caster overall. He wants to like warjacks, but he doesn't have the focus to do it and doesn't really have a way to mitigate that. His feat spawns more infantry, but he doesn't really have much to offer them except for his girl's -2DEF aura. Granted the aura is great, but not nearly as reliable as say Crippling Grasp or Icy Grip.

Are you bound to pGore at the hip, or are you open to perhaps another caster? Do you have the basic battle box? If not it's not necessary to buy, but if you do then pDenny is an absolutely brutal caster for Khador to come up against.

No actually i am getting a little tired of pGore he loooks awesome but he is just weird in game as previously stated

i actually have the basic battle box and book thingy

i have been looking through the book and to be honest i think i might try out pDenny

i wrote up a list for her here it be
Skarlock
Pistol Wraith
Ripjaw
Ripjaw
Ripjaw

2 Ripjaws attack one of his heavy jacks
other used for archnode to cast her debuff spells
Skarlock to get it off twice on same model
and pistol wraith to run around and harass his caster/ other warjacks (cause of the three shot thing he does with getting rid of a models movement)

what do you think?


also

SilverSaint wrote:
NOTE: VERY LONG POST THAT OP SHOULD FIND VERY HELPFUL

I echo what Casper says(what is he using exactly), but I have a few more questions.

1. Are you using Terrain? Sadly this makes a huge difference(imagine no terrain vs Cygnar they just shoot and laugh)
-Khador jacks usually have no access to pathfinder and are really slow, thus you can use this to your advantage in many cases even at lower points(especially if you have a harrower/leviathan) and he only has melee.
2. Are you playing with a scenario(say Mangled metal or even Killbox)?
-Without a scenario many things can occur that don't seem right(my most common example is Caine shooting and running, essentially making himself nigh unkillable to your army, but he can slowly wittle away).
3. What model options do you have?
-do you own the models you want to use in the list above?
-do you use proxy models or are you looking for things to buy specifically?

1) we use a terrain but it never really seems to slow him down. plus we are both rather new to the game
2) no no scenerio just who can kill the other caster first really. like i said just trying to understand the game
3) we both basically proxy everything so any model in the "book thingy" can be used. we are really just trying it out.

and i can potentially use any many model cause he has a TON of warmachine models (menoth and Khador) but no cryx


also he generally runs the female one with a couple of jacks
that or the one that is a guy is a heavy warjack hate him

idk their names

For pDenny 15 pts I would suggest the following:

Army 1:
Denny1
-Nightmare
-Defiler x2
Warwitch siren

Army 2:
Denny1
-Defiler
-Ripjaw
Skarlock
Warwitch Siren
Full Mechanithralls
Necrosurgeon

Army 3:
Denny1
-Defiler x2
-Deathjack

I would honestly try the

pGoreshade
-Deathwalker
-Deathjack
-Seether

combo if you REALLY wanna win, and throw out your feat early(turn 1) and block charge lanes...Advance using Mage Blight, eventually you will be in charge, that turn don't use mageblight, just give 1 focus to the Seether, 3 to the deathack, run thralls forward to block stuff/give darkshroud/attack, keep one far back by goreshade. Deathjack kills a jack, seether hurts and throws a jack at one of his other jacks, or his caster. Activate Goreshade, Soulgate the deathjack and remove that bane thrall you left back by goreshade. Activate the deathwalker and place it infront of the soulgated deathjack in a charge lane towards his other jack or warcaster.

He just lost a jack, your deathjack is safe, you can have the Deathjack charge another jack next turn and destroy it(lets assume he kills the seether). Its not your Deathjack, deathwalker, Goreshade, and any thralls left vs only his warcaster. Worst case scenario: his warcaster kills the Deathjack. He probably has no focus and goreshade can probably charge him. Run the deathwalker to within 5" of his caster(should of been within 5" last turn anwyay to reduce the chance of the DJ dieing) and make sure its outa your charge lanes. Charge with any thralls(probably have ~1-4 left). Make sure Goreshade can get in though, worst case one thrall runs in melee of their warcaster. Goreshade charges their caster with 7 focus, and their caster has Darkshroud from the bane and probably 0 focus from killing the deathjack....you should win 9/10 times in that final scenario of Goreshade on their caster.

You should win almost every time in this way. After a single win(probably the first game played in this manner), stop playing goreshade and try someone else.

If you're looking to a 15pt pDenny list, you could keep things (relatively) simple and effective with the following:

pDenny
Deathripper (or proxy Nightwretch)
Deathripper (as above)
Slayer
Min Bane Thralls
Necrotech

This makes use of what you already own as well as a small unit to learn infantry and stealth rules with. I would avoid big ticket models like the Deathjack or Nightmare for now as at 15pts they take up practically your entire army and rightfully so. The basic Slayer and double Ripper/Wretch will give you plenty to work with and learn focus management without relying on extreme power to get the job done.

Some people don't like the Deathripper since as an arc node he tends not to be in combat. At the same time, my Nightwretches don't tend to be within 6" of other models they can actually hit. I like the Deathrippers because they can be a potent enough threat with sustained PS13 attacks, especially after a pDenny Parasite + Feat turn. Toss in Scourge and you don't have to waste a focus boosting the first attack.

Edit: Just thought I'd add for clarification that unless you collected souls with her, Deneghra will not be able to hand the Ripper three focus, Parasite, and Scourge all in the same turn. That said, Feat + Parasite/Grasp + a boosted first attack roll means three solid PS17/18 hits in addition to whatever other goodies you have.

SilverSaint wrote:For pDenny 15 pts I would suggest the following:

Army 1:
Denny1
-Nightmare
-Defiler x2
Warwitch siren

Army 2:
Denny1
-Defiler
-Ripjaw
Skarlock
Warwitch Siren
Full Mechanithralls
Necrosurgeon

Army 3:
Denny1
-Defiler x2
-Deathjack

I would honestly try the

pGoreshade
-Deathwalker
-Deathjack
-Seether

combo if you REALLY wanna win, and throw out your feat early(turn 1) and block charge lanes...Advance using Mage Blight, eventually you will be in charge, that turn don't use mageblight, just give 1 focus to the Seether, 3 to the deathack, run thralls forward to block stuff/give darkshroud/attack, keep one far back by goreshade. Deathjack kills a jack, seether hurts and throws a jack at one of his other jacks, or his caster. Activate Goreshade, Soulgate the deathjack and remove that bane thrall you left back by goreshade. Activate the deathwalker and place it infront of the soulgated deathjack in a charge lane towards his other jack or warcaster.

He just lost a jack, your deathjack is safe, you can have the Deathjack charge another jack next turn and destroy it(lets assume he kills the seether). Its not your Deathjack, deathwalker, Goreshade, and any thralls left vs only his warcaster. Worst case scenario: his warcaster kills the Deathjack. He probably has no focus and goreshade can probably charge him. Run the deathwalker to within 5" of his caster(should of been within 5" last turn anwyay to reduce the chance of the DJ dieing) and make sure its outa your charge lanes. Charge with any thralls(probably have ~1-4 left). Make sure Goreshade can get in though, worst case one thrall runs in melee of their warcaster. Goreshade charges their caster with 7 focus, and their caster has Darkshroud from the bane and probably 0 focus from killing the deathjack....you should win 9/10 times in that final scenario of Goreshade on their caster.

You should win almost every time in this way. After a single win(probably the first game played in this manner), stop playing goreshade and try someone else.

i played my friend with this in mangled metal and owned him now i will never play this army again also i taught him how to beat this list right after

but it was fun

Kirbinator wrote:

If you're looking to a 15pt pDenny list, you could keep things (relatively) simple and effective with the following:

pDenny
Deathripper (or proxy Nightwretch)
Deathripper (as above)
Slayer
Min Bane Thralls
Necrotech

This makes use of what you already own as well as a small unit to learn infantry and stealth rules with. I would avoid big ticket models like the Deathjack or Nightmare for now as at 15pts they take up practically your entire army and rightfully so. The basic Slayer and double Ripper/Wretch will give you plenty to work with and learn focus management without relying on extreme power to get the job done.

Some people don't like the Deathripper since as an arc node he tends not to be in combat. At the same time, my Nightwretches don't tend to be within 6" of other models they can actually hit. I like the Deathrippers because they can be a potent enough threat with sustained PS13 attacks, especially after a pDenny Parasite + Feat turn. Toss in Scourge and you don't have to waste a focus boosting the first attack.

Edit: Just thought I'd add for clarification that unless you collected souls with her, Deneghra will not be able to hand the Ripper three focus, Parasite, and Scourge all in the same turn. That said, Feat + Parasite/Grasp + a boosted first attack roll means three solid PS17/18 hits in addition to whatever other goodies you have.

thank you i also managed to play with a slightly modefied version of this list

pDenny
Deathripper
Deathripper
Slayer
Skarlock
Pistol Wraith
Necrotech


got to admit that was pretty fun

The game ended with my slayer attacking his caster which had been hit with crippling grasp, parasite, and pDenny's feat
Suffice to say that was one dead caster

And i only lost 1 Deathripper, though the other was really banged up

Thank you for all the help guys you were all helpfull

For future reference, you cannot put both Crippling Grasp and Parasite on a target. They are both offensive upkeep spells and the rulebook states as soon as the second offensive upkeep is cast on that model/unit, the first expires.

The Skarlock with Deneghra isn't a bad investment, but it typically gets relegated to Ghost Walk duty. This isn't necessarily a bad thing since nobody really likes when your arc node cheerfully walks out of combat without any penalties, or a unit of Bane Thralls wander care free through a forest.

It looks like you're focusing on solos and such, but Warmachine armies are extremely infantry-reliant. For your next game or three you could swap out the Slayer and Necrotech for a full unit of Mechanithralls and a Necrosurgeon, or you can try out something like this:

pDenny
2x Deathripper
Skarlock
Min Bane Thrall + UA
Warwitch Siren