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Hey Dakka. I've never liked the idea of thuderwolf cavalry and I wanted to pose a few questions to the community:

I haven't read the SW codex, how do they explain the existance of enormous wolves and the SW's ability to ride the suckers?

Would this even work in reality?

My main issue is that wolves are predators and canines. They are not built like horses and have very different weight distributions, ergonomics, and mannerisms. You can ride a horse because of where its centre of mass is and because its back remains level and flat as it runs. The motion you have to adapt to is rolling and manageable. Wolves leap, jump, and when they run I'm pretty sure they would not be fun to sit on. I couldn't even see a saddle being made to sit comfortably on a wolf's back or where straps would go. In order to balance weight the straps would have to be almost at the arm-pits, but then their legs are restricted. When they charge an enemy the wolf wouldn't just run around and kick like a horse would. Wolves are way too dynamic in a fight for you to sit on it. They are also too smart to follow their riders every command in a situation where their life is in danger and they want to fight for it.

Even if you trained a wolf perfectly to act as a mount, would it not then be just a less comfortable, harder to feed horse with, admittadly, a scaryer bite?

I'm also the guy who doesn't like new Cold One mounts in Fantasy because I'm pretty sure two-legged prehistoric chickens couldn't pull off half the momentum on the charge that something on four meaty legs could. Am I crazy?

I haven't read the SW codex, how do they explain the existance of enormous wolves and the SW's ability to ride the suckers?

IIRC The wolves of Fenris are failed SW recruits who fail the trials and become overtaken by the canis helix. The become super wulfen and go native.

These mutant wolves are huge monsters easily capable of carrying the weight of a marine.

I'm also the guy who doesn't like new Cold One mounts in Fantasy because I'm pretty sure two-legged prehistoric chickens couldn't pull off half the momentum on the charge that something on four meaty legs could. Am I crazy?

Ever seen the movie where Bill Cosbey rides an Ostritch?

Also, Dinosaurs are massive animals with a sold bone structure. They arent as light and delicate as birds.

First thing, you assumed reality applies to the Space Opera of 40K.
Of course it's unrealistic, but so is the idea of a genetically-altered superbeing with fangs and tank armour for a suit.
Also, it's given that the Thunderwolves' anatomy is more similar to a rhino or elephant than a canine, making it more rideable.

The same applies to the Cold Ones. Rule of Cool always supplants Rule of Realism.

powerclaw wrote:Hey Dakka. I've never liked the idea of thuderwolf cavalry and I wanted to pose a few questions to the community:

I haven't read the SW codex,

I'm going to go ahead and stop you here... You might want to do a minimum of research before you get into a minefield like this.

Ask orcs how they ride em. They've been riding wolves for a lot longer then the sw.

Plus trying to logically analyze fantasy is kinda weird since even the guns like bolter can't actually work with physics.

As far as the codex description the Fenrisian wolves are solo creatures and don't share many actual earth wolves characteristics. It states they have more in common with a rhino .

To go along with Draigo's comments there is a sidebar in the SW codex of someones account that the wolves of Fenris have more in common with draft horses and sharks than they do with actual wolves. Some of what I read indicates that the Fenrisan wolves (of which the Thunderwolves are just bigger, meaner versions) were genetically engineered from a number of different creatures and simply made to look and somewhat behave like wolves.

Draigo wrote:Ask orcs how they ride em. They've been riding wolves for a lot longer then the sw.

Plus trying to logically analyze fantasy is kinda weird since even the guns like bolter can't actually work with physics.

As far as the codex description the Fenrisian wolves are solo creatures and don't share many actual earth wolves characteristics. It states they have more in common with a rhino .

This explains it very well. And read the damned Codex before posting such nonsense

DeffDred wrote:

I haven't read the SW codex, how do they explain the existance of enormous wolves and the SW's ability to ride the suckers?

IIRC The wolves of Fenris are failed SW recruits who fail the trials and become overtaken by the canis helix. The become super wulfen and go native.

Never confirmed or definitively backed up by anything or anyone.

purplefood wrote:Never confirmed or definitively backed up by anything or anyone.

Yeah, definitely only hinted at in PB. It's one of those wink, wink, nudge, nudge "There's no wolves on Fenris." kinda things.

pretre wrote:

purplefood wrote:Never confirmed or definitively backed up by anything or anyone.

Yeah, definitely only hinted at in PB. It's one of those wink, wink, nudge, nudge "There's no wolves on Fenris." kinda things.

SW yells "Who knew Ted would make such a fine mount cause he was a terrible marine!"

Just before 2nd edition launched, so the closing days of Rogue Trader, White Dwarf had a series on the Space Wolves that set in place much of their modern fluff.

I think they were written by Bill King.

It included a mention of Fenris having legendary wolves who could grow to the size of Rhino APCs.

Now we can argue how much sense that makes but really, you're going to argue biology and physics in 40k? REALLY?

So there you go, some of the earliest SW fluff, stories that are 19 years old, established there are giant wolfs on Fenris. And while they didn't mention riding them into battle it seems logical to me.

I personally think Thunderwolfs are a cool idea totally suitable to this game world.

My there is a lot of just wrong information in this thread already! Some correct information too, but wowzers some wrong!

DeffDred wrote:IIRC The wolves of Fenris are failed SW recruits who fail the trials and become overtaken by the canis helix. The become super wulfen and go native.

These mutant wolves are huge monsters easily capable of carrying the weight of a marine.

You are mixing up things. So we have at least 3 types of wolf-like creatures on Fenris:

1) Fenrisian Wolves - The most common. Size varies in the artwork of the Codexes. Most common is up between the elbow and shoulder of a Space Marine. They're fairly large.
2) Blackmane Wolves - Bigger cousins of the Fenrisian Wolves. A lot meaner, and again bigger.
3) Thunderwolves - Fluff size varies. They are used as mounts (now) but older fluff says they can get to the size of a Rhino APC.
4) Wulfen - Due to a flaw in the Canis Helix (one of the steps that makes a Space Wolf a Space Wolf vs a Space Marine), some initiates turn into beastmen werewolf things. Overcoming this "Curse" is part of the initation of a Space Wolf. Some don't truly over come it and in the heat of battle transform. Hence the whole Mark of the Wulfen; its not a sign of berserker rage, they actually turn into a wolf creature.

CrashCanuck wrote:To go along with Draigo's comments there is a sidebar in the SW codex of someones account that the wolves of Fenris have more in common with draft horses and sharks than they do with actual wolves. Some of what I read indicates that the Fenrisan wolves (of which the Thunderwolves are just bigger, meaner versions) were genetically engineered from a number of different creatures and simply made to look and somewhat behave like wolves.

I think this was the 3rd Edition Codex that had that. Again, they are called "wolves" because they are similar in appearance to the wolves of ancient Terra. Not because they actually are wolves. They are similar, but they are technically an alien creature that evolved on a fairly alien world.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Just before 2nd edition launched, so the closing days of Rogue Trader, White Dwarf had a series on the Space Wolves that set in place much of their modern fluff.

I think they were written by Bill King.

It included a mention of Fenris having legendary wolves who could grow to the size of Rhino APCs.

Now we can argue how much sense that makes but really, you're going to argue biology and physics in 40k? REALLY?

So there you go, some of the earliest SW fluff, stories that are 19 years old, established there are giant wolfs on Fenris. And while they didn't mention riding them into battle it seems logical to me.

I personally think Thunderwolfs are a cool idea totally suitable to this game world.

Indeed. As you say, stories well over a decade old have established there are giant wolves on Fenris. This is the first time they've been on the table is all.

So on to the OP's questions:

powerclaw wrote:Hey Dakka. I've never liked the idea of thuderwolf cavalry and I wanted to pose a few questions to the community:

I haven't read the SW codex, how do they explain the existance of enormous wolves and the SW's ability to ride the suckers?

Yes they do. Sort of. As mentioned previously, their existence isn't anything new to 5th Edition. Just the fact that Space Wolves ride them. The fluff for the Thunderwolf Cavalry is that only the elite upper echelons of the Wolf Guard (so the best of the best in the Space Wolves) ride them. How they get their mount is basically through a feat of strength.

Space Wolves will go on a "Lone Hunt" sometimes. Essentially, they leave their wargear behind and go into the wilderness of Fenris and track down a pack of Fenrisian Wolves. They then challenge the alpha leader and take control of the pack after slaying it in hand to hand combat.

Members of the secret Thunderwolf Cavalry (they don't officially exist, Space Wolves are treated suspiciously by some Imperial organizations as it is without involving 'monsters') do similar, but they find a Thunderwolf instead. Thunderwolves do not hunt in packs. They don't sneak around and hunt so much as they just bear down on their prey and take them out with brute strength.

If a non-space marine tried it they would be killed by Thunderwolves without a doubt. Most humans couldn't even take on a pack of Fenrisian Wolves (though due to the fluff with Canis Wolfborn we know its possible).

As for why this "works", well its essentially because of what the Wolf Priests did. They modified the Canis Helix at some point to incorporate the "essence" or "blood of" the wolves of Fenris. Its what corrupted the Canis Helix and causes the "Curse of the Wulfen". Basically all the wolves of Fenris are said to recognize each other's species as kindred spirits on some instinctual level and the Space Wolves are part of that as well.

powerclaw wrote:Would this even work in reality?

Wrong game to be arguing reality. You can have various degrees of realism with Sci-Fi/Fantasy (if anything is Science Fiction Fantasy it is W40K) but to the limits you'd have to stretch it to make this kind of argument you can only say yes. In reality, genetically enhanced super-humans could find an ice planet with giant creatures that resemble wolves in a very vague sense and tame them.

powerclaw wrote:My main issue is that wolves are predators and canines. They are not built like horses and have very different weight distributions, ergonomics, and mannerisms. You can ride a horse because of where its centre of mass is and because its back remains level and flat as it runs. The motion you have to adapt to is rolling and manageable. Wolves leap, jump, and when they run I'm pretty sure they would not be fun to sit on. I couldn't even see a saddle being made to sit comfortably on a wolf's back or where straps would go. In order to balance weight the straps would have to be almost at the arm-pits, but then their legs are restricted. When they charge an enemy the wolf wouldn't just run around and kick like a horse would. Wolves are way too dynamic in a fight for you to sit on it. They are also too smart to follow their riders every command in a situation where their life is in danger and they want to fight for it.

Something that is anywhere from 5-12 feet tall and is described as being incredibly strong can probably carry a 7-9 foot tall Space Marine in power armor. I wouldn't let it bother you too much.

powerclaw wrote:Even if you trained a wolf perfectly to act as a mount, would it not then be just a less comfortable, harder to feed horse with, admittadly, a scaryer bite?

The biting won't happen, and if you think its bad enough naturally just imagine if its been cyber-enhanced. The fluff says they do that sometimes, so adamantium jaws come into play.

And yes, feeding them would be hard. Especially for space travel. I imagine that's one reason they are kept secret. Some allied forces probably wouldn't approve of the resources it takes to care for them. I imagine food would have to be procured sometimes while a fleet travels.

powerclaw wrote:I'm also the guy who doesn't like new Cold One mounts in Fantasy because I'm pretty sure two-legged prehistoric chickens couldn't pull off half the momentum on the charge that something on four meaty legs could. Am I crazy?

Dinosaurs have more in common with avians than reptiles, but they are still their own genus. Anything used as a mount would have to be strong enough to carry the burden. Its a made up creature so you can't argue that it isn't.

DeffDred wrote:

Also, Dinosaurs are massive animals with a sold bone structure. They arent as light and delicate as birds.

Sorry to be nit picky but dinosaurs do not have solid bones. The hollow bones of birds originated in therapod dinosaurs that birds evoloved from. Cold ones are basically therapods so probably have bones with hollow sections too. However if you ever go to South Africa, watch some Ostrich derbys and you will realise they could still hold the body weight of a human comfortably!

This whole topic is ridiculous though as the OP is arguing about the realism of a large werewolf carrying a genetically altered human with two hearts, armour plating under his skin and ability to spit acid and evil elves riding dinosaurs. None of it is realistic, its called warhammer FANTASY and science FICTION for a reason!

monkeypuzzle wrote:Sorry to be nit picky but dinosaurs do not have solid bones. The hollow bones of birds originated in therapod dinosaurs that birds evoloved from. Cold ones are basically therapods so probably have bones with hollow sections too. However if you ever go to South Africa, watch some Ostrich derbys and you will realise they could still hold the body weight of a human comfortably!

I think he meant it metaphorically and not literally. Like who your argument is solid!

purplefood wrote:

DeffDred wrote:

I haven't read the SW codex, how do they explain the existance of enormous wolves and the SW's ability to ride the suckers?

IIRC The wolves of Fenris are failed SW recruits who fail the trials and become overtaken by the canis helix. The become super wulfen and go native.

Never confirmed or definitively backed up by anything or anyone.

Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, and Battle for the Fang all provide ample hints towards the fact that the Wolves of Fenris are far more than just wolves. It is also heavily hinted that they are indeed failed SW recruits in all three of those books and that the original humans who came to live on Fenris used genetic manipulation upon themselves which didn't work out to well and contributes to the creation of the Fenrisian Wolves.

Draigo wrote:Ask orcs how they ride em. They've been riding wolves for a lot longer then the sw.

Plus trying to logically analyze fantasy is kinda weird since even the guns like bolter can't actually work with physics.

As far as the codex description the Fenrisian wolves are solo creatures and don't share many actual earth wolves characteristics. It states they have more in common with a rhino .

QFT. Don't try to apply too much reality to the 40k universe. Who is to say what is possible on other worlds let alone 38,000 years from now? Hell my wife's Great Grandman just turned 100 she never thought Personal Computers would be reality or Space Travel for that matter when she was growing up in the 30s.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Just before 2nd edition launched, so the closing days of Rogue Trader, White Dwarf had a series on the Space Wolves that set in place much of their modern fluff.

I think they were written by Bill King.

It included a mention of Fenris having legendary wolves who could grow to the size of Rhino APCs.

Now we can argue how much sense that makes but really, you're going to argue biology and physics in 40k? REALLY?

So there you go, some of the earliest SW fluff, stories that are 19 years old, established there are giant wolfs on Fenris. And while they didn't mention riding them into battle it seems logical to me.

I personally think Thunderwolfs are a cool idea totally suitable to this game world.

Again QFT. It is well established that there is more to the Wolves of Fenris than meets the eye.

I wouldn't try to rationalise it

Thunder Wolf cavalry is just another whacky aspect of 40K...like the heavy reliance on melee weapons, IG cavalry etc.

Cold Ones aren't dinosaurs, they're bipedal reptiles. Any resemblance to any Terran creature, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

Exactly,

and even if they were perfect analogues I wouldn't be surprised at all if they could carry the weight of a human consdering Ostrichs can(for short distances anyway)


Utah Raptors were BIG(like the size of a large pickup), they could definitly carry a human sized creature on their back. The only issue would be taming them, which of course requires a behavior analysis and we can't do that. If they were, as is speculated, a pack animal it is possable that they could be tamed. Of course it might mean they would only accept a single person and a single person only to come near them, everyone else is food.