Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think some places are coming around, but one of my local gaming stores is vehemently against gamers using any IA or forgeworld stuff. Now I understand titans and super heavies and flyers in a non-apocalypse game. Where I have a problem however is Warhammer 40k approved or chapter approved stuff not being allowed. I may be a little biased because I play old codexes, but I think personally it is a crock! Now I know Adepticon allows 1 unit in a team to be in their tournies, but some tournies will not allow them at all. I just do not understand what all the hate is for. I understand that not all may have access to this stuff, but as long as everyone goes over their list prior to battle and what each thing can do if people have quesions on it. I do not see what the problem would be. I do not understand it coming from Grey Knight and Necron players as they have the newest codexes and have some of the newest and coolest GW has to offer. Just wondered what everyone elses opinion was on the matter. I guess why I really have a problem with it is for my Eldar army as Heavy Support choice has always been a premium, with the new IA out, it gives us some sorely needed fast attack slots with the Wasp and the Hornets. I do not think them overly broken or unfair, it just gives another tank that can actually shoot and a war walker in the FA slot, which in my mind should be there anyway. I do like the Warp Hunter Tank as well, but every time I have played it, it has been the focus of much shooting so rarely survives long to do much. Please let me know your feedback. Cheers

Not really a YMDC question.

I'm against IA in competitive play (I have no real problem with it in pick-up games, etc.). Although I am not one of the people who thinks everything in FW is broken, the truth is that are a few REALLY broken things around, and it would unbalance a few armies more than others (Tau get the short end of the stick for example).

Furthermore, to your specific example: some HS choices should stay HS. Just because they gave War Walkers jump packs and threw them in FA choices, doesn't necessarily mean they belong there. If you threw jump packs on Long Fangs, and put them in FA, would it be balanced?

I'm for forge world in regular 40k as long as it's specifically the new ones marked with "for warhammer 40k". Most apocalypse units are undercosted and overpowered, but most standard 40k units are actually pretty underpar. Theres nothing in any of the "for warhammer 40k" unit entries that can compare to psyfledreads, long fangs, sanguinary priests, vendettas, or even the humble th/ss terminator squad. Adding forge world just increases options and helps to buff up older armies.

I'm against IA in competitive play (I have no real problem with it in pick-up games, etc.). Although I am not one of the people who thinks everything in FW is broken, the truth is that are a few REALLY broken things around, and it would unbalance a few armies more than others (Tau get the short end of the stick for example).

The forge world tau heavy battlesuits are very powerful units that slot into FA and don't reduce your number of rail guns. The tau don't exactly get the short end there.

"for warhammer 40k". =/= "chapter approved"

We haven't had official chapter approved for years now but chapter approved was official core codex rules and treated as such.

I think there are times when they should not be allowed, and some times they should be allowed. I think there are some units which are ok and if GW added them as official updates to core codexes, it would be a good thing. I think there are some units which are unfair and give already dominate codexes even more power which will promote proxies and stand-ins for super meta builds.

I think when you have an IA allowed tourney, you will find most people int hat event using at least one IA unit because they are expecting to face it. When you have a general play with hundreds of people where only a small number have access to IA or FWmodels, you then have people winning through 'what does that do?' opposed to skill. Unfamiliarity and Yu-Gi-Oh you activated my trap card should not be a tactic used in competative 40k events.

I think things are fine right now where some events have it, some events don't. People who want it all the time to fix holes int heir old edition codexes...w ell that was never the intention for your codex to be rebalanced and FIXED via IA.

I think there are times when they should not be allowed, and some times they should be allowed. I think there are some units which are ok and if GW added them as official updates to core codexes, it would be a good thing. I think there are some units which are unfair and give already dominate codexes even more power which will promote proxies and stand-ins for super meta builds.

I don't think thats actually truly. The only questionable units are only available in codexes where they're sub part unit additions. Assaulting with a dreadnought out of a drop pod is neat except generic space marine dreadnoughts are actually kinda terrible. What units allow for overpowered competitive combinations in your opinion?

I am definitely for it, if it comes with limitations. I agree that there are some units that are simply insane and that some armies are severely underpowered (but those same armies are already underpowered in the core game anyways). That all being said I think a good set of restrictions on what can/cannot be used would definitely open the door for more interesting army compositions.

nkelsch wrote:I think when you have an IA allowed tourney, you will find most people int hat event using at least one IA unit because they are expecting to face it. When you have a general play with hundreds of people where only a small number have access to IA or FWmodels, you then have people winning through 'what does that do?' opposed to skill. Unfamiliarity and Yu-Gi-Oh you activated my trap card should not be a tactic used in competative 40k events.

I think over the last few years this has become less of an issue. Given the price increases in standard GW stuff, Forge World is no longer 'inaccesible' to people. To someone without a local GW store, the entire product line is equally inaccessible. To someone with only a small FLGS, then Sisters are exactly as accessible as Death Korps. Well, even LESS so, since their Codex was only available for two months last year...!

As to unfamiliarity, well, there are plenty of Codexes I don't personally own, and plenty of armies that I don't regularly play against. Nobody in my group plays Tyranids or Necrons, and therefore I'm at a disadvantage if I face those.

Against it.

Reason is that if forces people to buy more additional expensive reading material to play against a person who already has them, as well as several over the top units that would really unbalanced an already unbalanced game system.

Another way to suck the life out of your hobby dollars.

To me this is GW's answer to the Colossus line that PP is gearing up for (as well as the timing of 6th ED).

I believe that this move will drive more people out of the market as the expense of the game will be paid and played by only the hardcore, the fan bois and timmy 10 year old..

The average player will simply stop playing.

Adam LongWalker wrote:

The average player will simply stop playing.

I say that the average player never plays in a tournament, and so would have no great impact on the game.

Reason is that if forces people to buy more additional expensive reading material to play against a person who already has them,

As opposed to having to buy 300 dollars in codexes...? Do people do that now as it is?

Shrike325 wrote:

I say that the average player never plays in a tournament, and so would have no great impact on the game.

Pretty much this. Our playing group uses the IA rules. We have house ruled a few of them. No Lucious Drop Pods, Super Heavies, and Flyers outside of Apoc games and so on. If you pull out a few bad apples, it really isn't that big of a deal. Honestly, there isn't much in the IA books that is as powerful as the Codex Space Marine Assault terminators...

If one takes the obvious step of excluding the use of super heavies and flyers, then one simply need to ban the Big Five (Lucius Pattern Drop Pod, Deathstorm Drop Pod, Hades Breaching Drill, Land Raider Achilles and the Caestus Assault Ram).

If those steps are taken I dare say that the complaints would be so few that they were basically non-existent.

People who complain about the exclusion of the Big Five are IMO the people who just wish to exploit Imperial Armours lack of play testing.

ArbitorIan wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I think when you have an IA allowed tourney, you will find most people int hat event using at least one IA unit because they are expecting to face it. When you have a general play with hundreds of people where only a small number have access to IA or FWmodels, you then have people winning through 'what does that do?' opposed to skill. Unfamiliarity and Yu-Gi-Oh you activated my trap card should not be a tactic used in competative 40k events.

I think over the last few years this has become less of an issue. Given the price increases in standard GW stuff, Forge World is no longer 'inaccessible' to people. To someone without a local GW store, the entire product line is equally inaccessible. To someone with only a small FLGS, then Sisters are exactly as accessible as Death Korps. Well, even LESS so, since their Codex was only available for two months last year...!

As to unfamiliarity, well, there are plenty of Codexes I don't personally own, and plenty of armies that I don't regularly play against. Nobody in my group plays Tyranids or Necrons, and therefore I'm at a disadvantage if I face those.

I dunno, I am always surprised on the number of people who have credit cards who can't make international orders, or people without credit cards in general and can't make purchases except for their FLGS. A lot of GWs don't even have access to FW in the US. Most of the ones in my area say you have to go in person to the Bowie battle bunker and participate in a 'group buy' where they get a bunch of people to pool their order to get free shipping. No special deal other than that.

That makes FW and IA seem out of reach for a lot of people in the US and 'cost' isn't even the factor. The US economy has seriously changed how banks allow people to use credit cards and there has been a lot of US specific changes which make it very hard for peopel to buy from FW directly. Even my bank requires me to verify international charges in person at the bank or upgrade to a premium credit card which has added fraud protection. Many other banks simply have removed international transactions from people with lower credit limits.

Personally, I like how it is now, the primary event is the core ruleset which has one specific META which people build for, and then there is usually either alternative events or secondary events which have FW included. People can choose one, or the other or both as they play different and you build your army differently based upon the possible field of opponents and units you may face. As long as people are clear what they are expected to face before they show up, that is what is important. Nothing is worse showing up thinking the event is core 40k and then a wishywashy TO allowing some FW unit or list in without disclosing to everyone that is a possibility. Clearly posted and enforced rules is the key to a well-run event.

And even with the new IA book with the 'approved for 40k' , none of the codex FW lists become legal through that mechanism, so no DKoK or Dredbash unless it is a full-blown FW event.

Shrike325 wrote:I'm against IA in competitive play (I have no real problem with it in pick-up games, etc.). Although I am not one of the people who thinks everything in FW is broken, the truth is that are a few REALLY broken things around, and it would unbalance a few armies more than others (Tau get the short end of the stick for example).

Furthermore, to your specific example: some HS choices should stay HS. Just because they gave War Walkers jump packs and threw them in FA choices, doesn't necessarily mean they belong there. If you threw jump packs on Long Fangs, and put them in FA, would it be balanced?

I don't believe War Walkers should be HS choices in the first place since their role is scouting and outflanking. I think they fit the FA slot better anyway. I hope in the new codex (if we ever get one) that they are reassigned. JMO


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Adam LongWalker wrote:Against it.

Reason is that if forces people to buy more additional expensive reading material to play against a person who already has them, as well as several over the top units that would really unbalanced an already unbalanced game system.

Another way to suck the life out of your hobby dollars.

To me this is GW's answer to the Colossus line that PP is gearing up for (as well as the timing of 6th ED).

I believe that this move will drive more people out of the market as the expense of the game will be paid and played by only the hardcore, the fan bois and timmy 10 year old..

The average player will simply stop playing.

I don't think it forces anyone to buy anything. The same is true for any regular GW army you have, you "have" to buy a competative army or you will get squashed. I think if you look at the 'Warhammer 40k' or 'Chapter Approved' stuff most of this is not broken. I also agree that there are plenty of broken units already in GW line up - look at grey knights, space wolves, blood angels.

Just because they gave War Walkers jump packs and threw them in FA choices, doesn't necessarily mean they belong there. If you threw jump packs on Long Fangs, and put them in FA, would it be balanced?

They don't have Jumppacks....they have JetPacks. A big difference

nkelsch wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I think when you have an IA allowed tourney, you will find most people int hat event using at least one IA unit because they are expecting to face it. When you have a general play with hundreds of people where only a small number have access to IA or FWmodels, you then have people winning through 'what does that do?' opposed to skill. Unfamiliarity and Yu-Gi-Oh you activated my trap card should not be a tactic used in competative 40k events.

I think over the last few years this has become less of an issue. Given the price increases in standard GW stuff, Forge World is no longer 'inaccessible' to people. To someone without a local GW store, the entire product line is equally inaccessible. To someone with only a small FLGS, then Sisters are exactly as accessible as Death Korps. Well, even LESS so, since their Codex was only available for two months last year...!

As to unfamiliarity, well, there are plenty of Codexes I don't personally own, and plenty of armies that I don't regularly play against. Nobody in my group plays Tyranids or Necrons, and therefore I'm at a disadvantage if I face those.

I dunno, I am always surprised on the number of people who have credit cards who can't make international orders, or people without credit cards in general and can't make purchases except for their FLGS. A lot of GWs don't even have access to FW in the US. Most of the ones in my area say you have to go in person to the Bowie battle bunker and participate in a 'group buy' where they get a bunch of people to pool their order to get free shipping. No special deal other than that.

That makes FW and IA seem out of reach for a lot of people in the US and 'cost' isn't even the factor. The US economy has seriously changed how banks allow people to use credit cards and there has been a lot of US specific changes which make it very hard for peopel to buy from FW directly. Even my bank requires me to verify international charges in person at the bank or upgrade to a premium credit card which has added fraud protection. Many other banks simply have removed international transactions from people with lower credit limits.

Personally, I like how it is now, the primary event is the core ruleset which has one specific META which people build for, and then there is usually either alternative events or secondary events which have FW included. People can choose one, or the other or both as they play different and you build your army differently based upon the possible field of opponents and units you may face. As long as people are clear what they are expected to face before they show up, that is what is important. Nothing is worse showing up thinking the event is core 40k and then a wishywashy TO allowing some FW unit or list in without disclosing to everyone that is a possibility. Clearly posted and enforced rules is the key to a well-run event.

And even with the new IA book with the 'approved for 40k' , none of the codex FW lists become legal through that mechanism, so no DKoK or Dredbash unless it is a full-blown FW event.

It really is not all that hard nor that expensive, if you go to forgeworlds website and order. I got wasps #3, Hornets #3, warp Hunter and those were not that much more than the GW models in the states, the IA books were more expensive, but the same price on the GW website (though I believe they stopped selling them in Jan 2012). So I do not think it is that difficult to acquire the pieces. IMO Obviously I am for including 'Warhammer 40' approved stuff from IA and 'Chapter Approved' stuff


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like all the posts this is getting, obviously this is a cause for much debate and much heated discussions...

So long as it's only 40k type units (no flyers, no super heavies, no gargantuans), I support their inclusion.

Adam LongWalker wrote:Against it.

Reason is that if forces people to buy more additional expensive reading material to play against a person who already has them, as well as several over the top units that would really unbalanced an already unbalanced game system.

Another way to suck the life out of your hobby dollars.

To me this is GW's answer to the Colossus line that PP is gearing up for (as well as the timing of 6th ED).

I believe that this move will drive more people out of the market as the expense of the game will be paid and played by only the hardcore, the fan bois and timmy 10 year old..

The average player will simply stop playing.

Cost should have nothing to do with it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the books, most people don't own all the codex books as it is now. This is already a luxury hobby that is fast approaching FW prices anyway (will be there in the net 36-60 months if prices keep rising at the rate they have been). If we're taking cost into consideration here, we should also ban IG and Ork armies because most people can't afford fully fleshed out 2000pt armies of those either when they often cost 2-4x what a similar points SM army will cost.


There's a couple bad apples in FW stuff, but less than what I'd need to count on one hand, and it won't ruin 40k anymore than the silly stuff that's already in there (long fangs, purifiers, psyrifleman dreads, vendettas, vulkan, Grey Hunters, etc) and would add a lot of variety to games and armies that otherwise may not change for years on end, and may even provide some under-represented armies with some new tools and shift the meta (e.g. Tau might be more playable with the FW suits and vehicles, Eldar too)

Vaktathi wrote:Cost should have nothing to do with it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the books, most people don't own all the codex books as it is now.

This is also, I feel, another reason Forgeworld released Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition.

Do you want the rules for all 5th edition IA units? buy this one book. it's got them all, and their up to date rules. If tournaments want to painlessly include Forgeworld units, it's very easy to say 'You can use anything marked as a Warhammer 40,000 unit and is not a flier in IAA Second Edition'. This takes care of variant army lists, super heavy vehicles, fliers and any outlying IA units that FW forgot about but might be a bit too powerful. They can then, on top of that, say 'Also, you can't use the Caestus Assault Ram, Land Raider Achilles, Lucius drop pod, etc' if they want to ban any specific units.

IAA Second Edition puts everything in one place, with updated rules, and makes it nice and easy for anyone to get the rules for 95% of what FW offers outside of campaign specific army lists and some outlying units.

Vaktathi wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:Against it.

Reason is that if forces people to buy more additional expensive reading material to play against a person who already has them, as well as several over the top units that would really unbalanced an already unbalanced game system.

Another way to suck the life out of your hobby dollars.

To me this is GW's answer to the Colossus line that PP is gearing up for (as well as the timing of 6th ED).

I believe that this move will drive more people out of the market as the expense of the game will be paid and played by only the hardcore, the fan bois and timmy 10 year old..

The average player will simply stop playing.

Cost should have nothing to do with it. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the books, most people don't own all the codex books as it is now. This is already a luxury hobby that is fast approaching FW prices anyway (will be there in the net 36-60 months if prices keep rising at the rate they have been). If we're taking cost into consideration here, we should also ban IG and Ork armies because most people can't afford fully fleshed out 2000pt armies of those either when they often cost 2-4x what a similar points SM army will cost.


There's a couple bad apples in FW stuff, but less than what I'd need to count on one hand, and it won't ruin 40k anymore than the silly stuff that's already in there (long fangs, purifiers, psyrifleman dreads, vendettas, vulkan, Grey Hunters, etc) and would add a lot of variety to games and armies that otherwise may not change for years on end, and may even provide some under-represented armies with some new tools and shift the meta (e.g. Tau might be more playable with the FW suits and vehicles, Eldar too)

This. FW is not much more expensive than GW prices now. I can get a landraider for 66$ or an armageddon pattern medusa for 82$ roughly. 16$ difference isn't that much in a game like this. And FW stuff definitely isn't more overpowered than Ward's stuff.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:It really is not all that hard nor that expensive, if you go to forgeworlds website and order. I got wasps #3, Hornets #3, warp Hunter and those were not that much more than the GW models in the states, the IA books were more expensive, but the same price on the GW website (though I believe they stopped selling them in Jan 2012). So I do not think it is that difficult to acquire the pieces. IMO Obviously I am for including 'Warhammer 40' approved stuff from IA and 'Chapter Approved' stuff

What part of Banks not allowing people to make international purchases or people not having credit cards do you seem to purposefully dismiss?

IA and FW is not accessible to everyone and is not as easy as you think to get. There is a reason many people need to purchase through re-sellers who make the purchase count as domestic for billing.

The system in place now works fine. There is no need for all events to be forced to be one way or another, especially to please eldar players simply because they have a junky old codex.

Adam LongWalker wrote:Against it.

Reason is that if forces people to buy more additional expensive reading material to play against a person who already has them, as well as several over the top units that would really unbalanced an already unbalanced game system.

Another way to suck the life out of your hobby dollars.

To me this is GW's answer to the Colossus line that PP is gearing up for (as well as the timing of 6th ED).

I believe that this move will drive more people out of the market as the expense of the game will be paid and played by only the hardcore, the fan bois and timmy 10 year old..

The average player will simply stop playing.

First, if you don't like it, you don't have to play. No one forces you to play 40K. Second, if you cannot afford it, don't disallow those who can. Third, high price does not drive people out of the market. They simply play other miniature games. Fourth, average players do not play in a competitive tournament. They simply don't play at all. Only those with blind loyalty do. They all think that 40K is the only game in the world that they can play.

nkelsch wrote:

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:It really is not all that hard nor that expensive, if you go to forgeworlds website and order. I got wasps #3, Hornets #3, warp Hunter and those were not that much more than the GW models in the states, the IA books were more expensive, but the same price on the GW website (though I believe they stopped selling them in Jan 2012). So I do not think it is that difficult to acquire the pieces. IMO Obviously I am for including 'Warhammer 40' approved stuff from IA and 'Chapter Approved' stuff

What part of Banks not allowing people to make international purchases or people not having credit cards do you seem to purposefully dismiss?

IA and FW is not accessible to everyone and is not as easy as you think to get. There is a reason many people need to purchase through re-sellers who make the purchase count as domestic for billing.

The system in place now works fine. There is no need for all events to be forced to be one way or another, especially to please eldar players simply because they have a junky old codex.

You need to get out of your credit crisis or just have a friend place the order for you if you're too young. Hell, most FLGS' are happy to place orders for players. Are you in prison or something?

A lot of people can't afford to play warhammer in general, but we don't just cancel all tournaments because of that. You can actually buy a lot of FW models for a pretty comparable amount to a similar GW kit.. .For example the Warp Hunter kit is about 55$ and comes with the fire prism sprue

I allow Forgeworlds in all Pittsburgh area tournaments I run and haven't had a problem. The amount of people that actually bring FW to events is so low that it's not worth all the hysteria. Although I agree, some units arent balanced well and I don't allow the non-standard drop pods. Granted, I also think that no FW can compare to the lack of balance that is the Grey Knight codex so It's hard for me to ban things for "balance" issues when you have the GK book allowed

Not allowing FW because some people can't easily grab FW models off of retail shelves is a poor reason imo. I think FW adds variety and character to a tournament system that has been very very stale for years now (yay mech!) and I'm always in favor of it within reason. The entire hobby is expensive.. It's like joining a country club and complaining that someone has a more expensive polo shirt than you do.. At the end of the day you're playing a hobby that the vast majority of people can't afford

If you want to play with FW come to Pittsburgh!

If I remember right the forge world whirlwinds are actually cheaper than games work shop whirlwinds.

Yeah exactly.. I actually order most of my eldar from FW cause it's cheaper to buy their kits and get free eldar sprues with them

Kirasu wrote:A lot of people can't afford to play warhammer in general, but we don't just cancel all tournaments because of that. You can actually buy a lot of FW models for a pretty comparable amount to a similar GW kit.. .For example the Warp Hunter kit is about 55$ and comes with the fire prism sprue

I allow Forgeworlds in all Pittsburgh area tournaments I run and haven't had a problem. The amount of people that actually bring FW to events is so low that it's not worth all the hysteria. Although I agree, some units arent balanced well and I don't allow the non-standard drop pods. Granted, I also think that no FW can compare to the lack of balance that is the Grey Knight codex so It's hard for me to ban things for "balance" issues when you have the GK book allowed

Not allowing FW because some people can't easily grab FW models off of retail shelves is a poor reason imo. I think FW adds variety and character to a tournament system that has been very very stale for years now (yay mech!) and I'm always in favor of it within reason. The entire hobby is expensive.. It's like joining a country club and complaining that someone has a more expensive polo shirt than you do.. At the end of the day you're playing a hobby that the vast majority of people can't afford

If you want to play with FW come to Pittsburgh!

Or Vegas we have allowed forgeworld stuff for over ten years and never had problems with it. In truth almost no one brings any.

nkelsch wrote:

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:It really is not all that hard nor that expensive, if you go to forgeworlds website and order. I got wasps #3, Hornets #3, warp Hunter and those were not that much more than the GW models in the states, the IA books were more expensive, but the same price on the GW website (though I believe they stopped selling them in Jan 2012). So I do not think it is that difficult to acquire the pieces. IMO Obviously I am for including 'Warhammer 40' approved stuff from IA and 'Chapter Approved' stuff

What part of Banks not allowing people to make international purchases or people not having credit cards do you seem to purposefully dismiss?

IA and FW is not accessible to everyone and is not as easy as you think to get. There is a reason many people need to purchase through re-sellers who make the purchase count as domestic for billing.

The system in place now works fine. There is no need for all events to be forced to be one way or another, especially to please eldar players simply because they have a junky old codex.

I did not dismiss banks not allowing international purchases, as I have done it with my AMERICAN credit cards and I know friends that have done the same, I doubt we have the same credit card. But please try to be a little kinder on your posts. I started this thread to have people post their views, but you do not need to be short, crass or rude when people post back.

Here in Orlando, we've started to have FW back in tournaments lately. Besides me, maybe only two other people are using FW units. I'm sure that will change once people begin to see that playing FW units is no big deal. I hope that the trend spreads to other stores in the area. I know two FLGS in the area that allow FW units now. Hopefully, others will follow.