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Vaktathi wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
But that is the thing... Xenos again already have a weaker codex in the regular metabase, and while they do get some new toys with inclusion of IA, whatever ork or eldar or tau unit is used is completely overshadowed by the marine units which blow it out of the water and further imbalance the meta.

Unlikely, and even if it did, it's already grossly imbalanced so what really are you losing? given the better costing and additional capabilities the FW units add to xenos armies, they likely have a much greater marginal value to such 'tier 2" armies than the available FW units add to the assumed "tier 1" armies here. Eldar with access to FW stuff gain a whole lot more in terms of competitveness than SM's with their FW stuff. Sure the SM's may be stronger because their core rules have been more recently updated, but FW likewise will add marginally less value.

Oh, and GW has said in 4th edition and 5th edition at gamesday when they were begining writing rulesets to be with the next edition in mind. I have seen no evidence that FW has that in mind especially since they have to re-do the same units rules 2-3 times per edition due to imbalance issues.

Which FW units have had their rules redone 3 times within the space of a single edition (not including "experimental" playtest rule)? A few have had them redone once, I can't think of any that had them redone twice off the top of my head except the dread drop pod.

FW can also much easier re-write their rules (and often do) in response to fairness issues and edition changes. FW units don't go up to two editions without updates the way GW codex's do.

The only consistent 'rewriting' I see is the following:
1) Experimental rules.
2) Version updates.

Which makes damn good sense to me. Forgeworld puts out the Experimental rules to give potential buyers a taste of the new shinies they're putting out while playtesting and prep for manufacture is still ongoing. But once that's done and the book comes out, so do the newer, more balanced rules. And the recent updates, like to the Tau, D-99 and such, are the first I can recall since the stuff's come out. Certainly not the "2-3 times per edition due to imbalance" that nkelsh talks of.

I think most FW units should be used, as long as there are no Apocalypse units.
Although, I think that Remora Drones with their flyer rules should be allowed because they are not that hard to kill...

Personally I think that if someone wants to shell out the money to field IA stuff, then more power to them. On average FW stuff is no worse than normal 40k stuff, especially normal 40k stuff when tricked out to be hyper-competitive.

The Lucius Drop Pod is a very decent buy, but it's not quiet in that 'utterly stupid' range. Will it mess up a gun line's 'Flawless Victory' by allowing an SM player to get a Dreadnought deep struck and into assault without having it shot at first? Yes. Will it stop that Dreadnought from getting melta-ed to death once it's done munching on that first squad it assaults? No.

The Land Raider Achilles is a frighteningly hard to kill vehicle... but it's a 300pt+ gun tank. It's only got a 6 transport capacity, and it's not an assault vehicle. You pay through the nose for it's survivability, and while it's firepower is nice, I wouldn't call it 300pt+ nice.

I would love to see feedback from people playing in other countires, howoften they see forgeworld. I would imagine in Great Brittain it is quite common a long with Europe I would guess. I have talked to a few Dakkanuts from other countries and most of them were kind of surprised by the issue that it is here in the states... Cheers and thanks for all the posts.

I really dont get the hate. Anything that gives more variety in the game and makes the Xenos codexes viable to a degree is fine by me. Went to a tournament recently and out of the 20 players 12 of them were GKs and 5 were marine variants. Me and two others were playing Ork, DE, and CE. I would have given anything to feel like I wasnt just scraping the bottom of the barrel for a tie. I believe that things from the corsairs and IA books would've made a big difference in my overall experience.

And anyone who believes that FW doesn't have access to the current rules being developed is a fool. The IA second ed rules will function perfectly well in 6th.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I would love to see feedback from people playing in other countires, howoften they see forgeworld. I would imagine in Great Brittain it is quite common a long with Europe I would guess. I have talked to a few Dakkanuts from other countries and most of them were kind of surprised by the issue that it is here in the states... Cheers and thanks for all the posts.

As most tournaments in Sweden are run using our local version of the INAT, we almost always have the option of running IA stuff at tournaments. The greatest offenders are usually banned, however. I haven't seen any IA units yet, although me and my mates are gearing up to get some (Dreadclaw, Wraithseer and Contemptor Dreadnought, respectively).

Reading this, I think it is interesting that the "no flyers" canard isn't really being trotted out (as I've seen it in some older discussions on the topic). Like so many IG units, inclusion in the codex has "mainstreamed" some of these, and I can only hope that there will be other incidents of this going forward (e.g. Hornets and Wasps in a forthcoming CE codex, inclusion of more Tau units originally featured in IA into their codex).

Personally, I don't see a problem with allowing FW units with IA rules into tournaments. I mean, aside from monetary limitations (which, come on, this is NOT a cheap hobby), there's nothing that really makes it unfeasable. FW untils and IA rules give some great fixes to some broken armies (I don't know how many times my Hazard suits pulled me out of a jam), but I do tend to agree that they are somewhat over-priced points wise. Aside from the inherent fear of anything "new and different" many players have, I haven't really seen many valid points why they shouldn't be allowed. I think it's a lot of apprehension that SOMETHING might bring some balance to the game and cause the beloved winning tournament build to be challenged.

spectreoneone wrote:Personally, I don't see a problem with allowing FW units with IA rules into tournaments. I mean, aside from monetary limitations (which, come on, this is NOT a cheap hobby), there's nothing that really makes it unfeasable. FW untils and IA rules give some great fixes to some broken armies (I don't know how many times my Hazard suits pulled me out of a jam), but I do tend to agree that they are somewhat over-priced points wise. Aside from the inherent fear of anything "new and different" many players have, I haven't really seen many valid points why they shouldn't be allowed. I think it's a lot of apprehension that SOMETHING might bring some balance to the game and cause the beloved winning tournament build to be challenged.

I agree I imagine that a lot of the hate comes from people fearing new things and people who have overpowered units like GK, Wolves and do not want to see a level playing field.
It is sad as I do truely love this game, however I do think some of the other gaming systems do a much better job of balancing the armies and updating on a timely manner. I wish they would combine forces (meld FW into GW) and have a team that works on Just Fantasy, just 40k and one person takes responsibility for 1-2 codices, if they all communicated, I think they could do things in a timely manner, keep the game more fair, and still make a proffit. May be they could make Matt Ward their mascot or put him in a corner to play with some new GK models and not give him any real responsibilities, that way he won't screw up the fluff and not make any more GK codices....

The day I am ok with FW in tournaments is the day FW releases a BALANCED book of only 40k-applicable entries, rather than having them scattered across multiple books with certain units being totally broken.

ph34r wrote:The day I am ok with FW in tournaments is the day FW releases a BALANCED book of only 40k-applicable entries, rather than having them scattered across multiple books with certain units being totally broken.

Because that totally doesn't describe the current 15ish army books at all!

Way to fail to understand 4 pages!

ph34r wrote:The day I am ok with FW in tournaments is the day FW releases a BALANCED book of only 40k-applicable entries, rather than having them scattered across multiple books with certain units being totally broken.

Check Imperial Armour 2nd edition all currently legal stuff is in there with nothing more unbalanced than IG or GK. In fact it makes some armies more able to compete with them.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I agree I imagine that a lot of the hate comes from people fearing new things and people who have overpowered units like GK, Wolves and do not want to see a level playing field.

Your imagination would be totally wrong because the codexes with overpowered units get access to even more overpowered units with the inclusion of FW rules. And you imagine everyone who disagrees with you into sweeping stereotypes so you can dismiss them even though most of us who seem to be disagreeing don't actually play SW or GK or any of these codexes you claim we do.

I guess I could also imagine all FW proponents are crybaby xenos players who just want their personal army to get buffed right? And then I can throw in the term neckbeard a few times and then I would be correct right?

The issue is it isn't as black and white as you make it. There are very real issues with how FW units as a whole impact the already imbalanced METABASE. And for every one person who buys a neat-o looking tau battlesuit for his awesome tau army painted in neat camo for fun, there are 5 people who are itching at the chance to run the 'Big 5' by proxying non-FW models and crushing opponents utterly.

Trying to force FW all the time is just as bard as allowing it none of the time. Having it be a 'sometimes' thing with TOs determining the impact on the local gaming community is the correct way to handle FW rules. If you don;t monitor the playerbase and the impact on the local META, you risk being crushed under it. I think the TOs who actually experience this issue have put in some very good descriptions of WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING with these rules and they are being dismissed for strawmans who wants power eldar and someone else who is calling everyone a GK player who is defending their codex superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

ph34r wrote:The day I am ok with FW in tournaments is the day FW releases a BALANCED book of only 40k-applicable entries, rather than having them scattered across multiple books with certain units being totally broken.

Check Imperial Armour 2nd edition all currently legal stuff is in there with nothing more unbalanced than IG or GK. In fact it makes some armies more able to compete with them.

Disagree. IA2nd edition has some obscenly broken stuff, almost all of those broken units are for imperial armies. It solves nothing and wasn't designed to be balancing.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

ph34r wrote:The day I am ok with FW in tournaments is the day FW releases a BALANCED book of only 40k-applicable entries, rather than having them scattered across multiple books with certain units being totally broken.

Check Imperial Armour 2nd edition all currently legal stuff is in there with nothing more unbalanced than IG or GK. In fact it makes some armies more able to compete with them.

I am all too familiar with IA:A2e's Land Raider Achilles, Caestus Assault Ram, Lucius pod, etc. In addition, IA:A2e contains tons of Apocalypse only rules, which are useless to one who plays only normal 40k and jacks up the book's price for those that would need it just to play their 40k legal models.

Also totally agreed with nkelsch. Most people who look at IA:A2e think of the ways that it will help them finally be able to compete with "those damn GK/SM/SW/DE/IG" players. Unfortunately this is not the case; marines get many of the best units and armies that were hurting before get nothing useful.

look i don't have much forgeworld stuff (yet) but i have seen it in our local GW (our manager is really coll and loves the flavour they can bring to the battle. Yes some forgeworld units seem a bit broken but they seem to be well spread out (with the exceptions of DE and crons). Other than that i've not had a problem with them

So xenos armies are supposed to sit in the dark and suffer because you're afraid of some game competition.

I say suck it up and play the game, neckbeard, IA and all. The ONLY reason you don't want it allowed is because it threatens the already under costed Imperial codexes.

See, I have an Imperial army so yeah I might be a little hypocritical, but I main Xenos armies and quite frankly I'd love to see some tourneys go no Imperial at all. But that's never gonna happen so I still suck it up and play through.

Also, how do you know that it wasn't designed with the thought of bringing a couple codexes in line with the current creep?Sure, there are some broken Imperial units, but then again when aren't Imperials overpowered or under costed? I mean that's exactly what it does for Tau and Eldar it gives them some units that make them overall more viable and to take that away just because you don't like the method of delivery is cowardly and selfish.

Maybe tone things down a bit?

The whole "why the hate" and "neckbeards afraid of yadda yadda" isn't really helping the discussion at all.

You can't make people play with IA. You can't make TO's run events that allow IA. More and more events are being run that allow the rules and models, but trying to insist that it be used all the time is a lost cause, because each group/area/ club/TO/store will do what they want anyway.

Mr.Church13 wrote:So xenos armies are supposed to sit in the dark and suffer because you're afraid of some game competition.

I say suck it up and play the game, neckbeard, IA and all. The ONLY reason you don't want it allowed is because it threatens the already under costed Imperial codexes.

See, I have an Imperial army so yeah I might be a little hypocritical, but I main Xenos armies and quite frankly I'd love to see some tourneys go no Imperial at all. But that's never gonna happen so I still suck it up and play through.

Also, how do you know that it wasn't designed with the thought of bringing a couple codexes in line with the current creep?Sure, there are some broken Imperial units, but then again when aren't Imperials overpowered or under costed? I mean that's exactly what it does for Tau and Eldar it gives them some units that make them overall more viable and to take that away just because you don't like the method of delivery is cowardly and selfish.

Your post... it's all fallacies and assumptions.

Nice assumption: "You want xenos armies to suffer"
Assumptions for everyone: "You are afraid of competition"
More assumptions! "The ONLY reason you don't want it allowed is because it threatens the already under costed Imperial codexes"
Assuming IA:A2e is some master stroke of rules design and not to sell models: "Also, how do you know that it wasn't designed with the thought of bringing a couple codexes in line with the current creep?"
This sentence shows us how you assume Imperial armies are OP, and you even follow through by having no problem with making those armies even better. "Sure, there are some broken Imperial units, but then again when aren't Imperials overpowered or under costed?"
Yeah, and everyone is totally complaining about the Tau and Eldar units: "I mean that's exactly what it does for Tau and Eldar it gives them some units that make them overall more viable"
And now if you don't like IA's rules balance, you are a selfish coward! "and to take that away just because you don't like the method of delivery is cowardly and selfish"

I thought "frankly I'd love to see some tourneys go no Imperial at all" was a gem too.

<thread terminated; I assume that we're done, as we've degenerated into shouting AT each other, instead of talking TO each other>