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2012/02/20 17:45:51
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Despite spending a whopping $2.7 billion on creating and running a long-gun registry, Canadians never reaped any benefits from the project. The legislation to end the program finally passed the Parliament on Wednesday. Even though the country started registering long guns in 1998, the registry never solved a single murder. Instead it has been an enormous waste of police officers’ time, diverting their efforts from patrolling Canadian streets and doing traditional policing activities.
Gun-control advocates have long claimed that registration is a safety issue, and their reasoning is straightforward: If a gun has been left at a crime scene and it was registered to the person who committed the crime, the registry will link the crime gun back to the criminal.
Nice logic, but reality never worked that way. Crime guns are very rarely left at the crime scene, and when they are left at the scene, they have not been registered — criminals are not stupid enough to leave behind a gun that’s registered to them. Even in the few cases where registered crime guns are left at the scene, it is usually because the criminal has been seriously injured or killed, so these crimes would have been solved even without registration.
The statistics speak for themselves. From 2003 to 2009, there were 4,257 homicides in Canada, 1,314 of which were committed with firearms. Data provided last fall by the Library of Parliament reveals that the weapon was identified in fewer than a third of the homicides with firearms, and that about three-quarters of the identified weapons were not registered. Of the weapons that were registered, about half were registered to someone other than the person accused of the homicide. In just 62 cases — that is, only 4.7 percent of all firearm homicides — was the gun registered to the accused. As most homicides in Canada are not committed with a gun, the 62 cases correspond to only about 1 percent of all homicides.
To repeat, during these seven years, there were only 62 cases — nine a year — where it was even conceivable that registration made a difference. But apparently, the registry was not important even in those cases. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Chiefs of Police have not yet provided a single example in which tracing was of more than peripheral importance in solving a case.
The problem isn’t just with the long-gun registry. The data provided above cover all guns, including handguns. There is no evidence that, since the handgun registry was started in 1934, it has been important in solving a single homicide.
Looking at just long guns shows that since 1997, there have been three murders in which the gun was registered to the accused. The Canadian government doesn’t provide any information on whether those three accused individuals were convicted.
Nor is there any evidence that registration reduced homicides. Research published last year by McMaster University professor Caillin Langmann in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence confirmed what other academic studies have found: “This study failed to demonstrate a beneficial association between legislation and firearm homicide rates between 1974 and 2008.” There is not a single refereed academic study by criminologists or economists that has found a significant benefit from gun laws. A recent Angus Reid poll indicates that Canadians already understand this, with only 13 percent believing that the registry has been successful.
The problem isn’t just that the $2.7 billion spent on registration over 17 years has produced no arrests, it is that the money could have been used to put more police on the street or pay for more health care or cut taxes. An extra $160 million a year pays for a lot of police or doctors or teachers.
Take police. Assuming each officer is paid $70,000 per year, $2.7 billion would pay for almost 2,300 officers annually. Academic research by one of us (Lott) indicates that adding that many street officers would reduce violent crimes in Canada by about 1,800. Registration isn’t getting Canadians any of this.
And the costs of running the registry aren’t just the $2.7 billion, since that excludes enforcement costs and individual compliance costs. The first step that police in Canada take in investigating a violent crime is to see if their suspects are licensed gun owners. But when Canada has 6.4 million registered gun owners, and police accuse only nine people of homicide each year whose registered guns were found at the scene of a crime, the return seems as close to zero as possible. It is also claimed that registration protects police officers’ safety, but homicide against Canadian police officers is actually up 20 percent since the long-gun registry started, compared with the rate during the previous decade. And more important, not a single police officer has been identified as being killed by someone with a registered gun.
Gun-control proponents have worried that scrapping the long-gun registry after so much has been invested in it would be a waste — “a $2 billion bonfire,” in the words of Gatineau member of Parliament Françoise Boivin. Unfortunately, that money is already wasted, and the registry costs kept growing. It costs about $100 million a year to operate. Instead of burning up more money, Canada can spend it on things that will actually do some good.
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
2012/02/20 17:51:04
Subject: Re:Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Based off of the statistics, this looks like a good call. The registry wasn't really working.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/02/20 20:18:42
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
I'm curious if anyone raised those rather obvious flaws when the legislation was being voted on.
I'm also curious why they bothered. Even if guns aren't compiled in a registry you can trace a gun by serial number from its manufacturer to the store that sold it. Why would you need to register it at all (<- Doesn't know much about guns and how they're sold)
The gun registry is faster if it's properly set up, basically, as there's no need to contact the manufacturer.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2012/02/20 20:25:09
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Its*
By the way, is the only prerequisite for a story being posted on the OT that it involved guns? This seems like a pretty minor story to me, correct me if I'm wrong.
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
2012/02/21 00:23:20
Subject: Re:Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Sounds reasonable. I don't see a reason to register long guns anyway. I doubt too many people are killed by long guns compared to pistols or shotguns. Instead of wasting time and money on that, they can put more effort into other things.
Maybe Canada's Pants will take advice and make it legal to own machine guns
If only ZUN!bar were here...
2012/02/21 00:42:06
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Samus_aran115 wrote:Sounds reasonable. I don't see a reason to register long guns anyway. I doubt too many people are killed by long guns compared to pistols or shotguns. Instead of wasting time and money on that, they can put more effort into other things.
Maybe Canada's Pants will take advice and make it legal to own machine guns
You can own machine guns, they are just very pricey and require paperwork. Twice a year there is a gathering for machine gun owners in West Point, KY calle the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/02/21 00:51:06
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Samus_aran115 wrote:Sounds reasonable. I don't see a reason to register long guns anyway. I doubt too many people are killed by long guns compared to pistols or shotguns. Instead of wasting time and money on that, they can put more effort into other things.
Maybe Canada's Pants will take advice and make it legal to own machine guns
Shotguns are long guns, and to echo Ahtman, fully automatic firearms a bitch to buy, own and register. Class III Licenses are a large enough hoop to jump through besides the exhorbant costs on Class III weapons. Although, if your Machine Gun is of a certain age and has capture papers, it can be bought with a Curio & Relic License (C&R) which is mainly for collectibility and not for crime.
M1928A1 Thompson Submachine gun available, manufactured by Savage Arms. Reconditioned. C&R Eligible:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Sounds reasonable. I don't see a reason to register long guns anyway. I doubt too many people are killed by long guns compared to pistols or shotguns. Instead of wasting time and money on that, they can put more effort into other things.
Maybe Canada's Pants will take advice and make it legal to own machine guns
You can own machine guns, they are just very pricey and require paperwork. Twice a year there is a gathering for machine gun owners in West Point, KY calle the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot.
Awesome!
I refer to it as being "illegal", because it's just too big of an inconvenience for most people to really do. I don't see why anyone really needs to own a machine gun though.
I know a guy in West Virginia who owns an M60. Cost him about 30 Grand and he had to wait months and months for his paperwork to come through. Plus it eats up ammo like crazy, so he has to spend a couple hundred dollars whenever he decides to have some fun with it. I suppose if you have the money to afford a machine gun, you're not going to be jeopardizing that wealth or your criminal record any time soon. The system works well, I suppose.
If only ZUN!bar were here...
2012/02/21 00:58:39
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Samus_aran115 wrote:Sounds reasonable. I don't see a reason to register long guns anyway. I doubt too many people are killed by long guns compared to pistols or shotguns. Instead of wasting time and money on that, they can put more effort into other things.
Maybe Canada's Pants will take advice and make it legal to own machine guns
You can own machine guns, they are just very pricey and require paperwork. Twice a year there is a gathering for machine gun owners in West Point, KY calle the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot.
Awesome!
I refer to it as being "illegal", because it's just too big of an inconvenience for most people to really do. I don't see why anyone really needs to own a machine gun though.
I know a guy in West Virginia who owns an M60. Cost him about 30 Grand and he had to wait months and months for his paperwork to come through. Plus it eats up ammo like crazy, so he has to spend a couple hundred dollars whenever he decides to have some fun with it. I suppose if you have the money to afford a machine gun, you're not going to be jeopardizing that wealth or your criminal record any time soon. The system works well, I suppose.
Besides, the criminals never go through channels to buy machine guns anyway. They've acquired them froms international arms traders, allied gangs, rouge regimes or had legal semi-automatic guns converted to full auto (SKS, Tech 9, AR 15's with military trigger groups, AK's with the fining pin welded and the bolt ground down etc...)
Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away
1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action
"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."
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Res Ipsa Loquitor
2012/02/21 02:09:27
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
I'm a Canadian (living in NZ now). And I'm not fully understanding this? Does this bill mean Canadians can't own any rifles or does it mean we don't have to register them if we have one?
Cheers
Banished, from my own homeland. And now you dare enter my realm?... you are not prepared.
dogma wrote:Did she at least have a nice rack?
Love it! Play Chaos Dwarfs, Dwarfs, Brets and British FoW (Canadian Rifle and Armoured)
2012/02/21 22:07:11
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Poppabear wrote:I'm a Canadian (living in NZ now). And I'm not fully understanding this? Does this bill mean Canadians can't own any rifles or does it mean we don't have to register them if we have one?
Cheers
You have to register them. However, that's going to be struck down and all records expunged anyway.
2012/02/21 22:07:19
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
It means we don't have to register them if we have one, and the registry is being destroyed. Hooray?
Among our all of problems, this is pretty far down the list.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2012/02/21 22:36:14
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
-National review.
-uncited sources.
-clearly biased language
-"John R. Lott Jr. is the author of More Guns, Less Crime (University of Chicago Press, third edition, 2010) and Gary Mauser is professor emeritus at Simon Fraser University."
Yep.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/02/21 22:39:54
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
ShumaGorath wrote:-National review.
-uncited sources.
-clearly biased language
-"John R. Lott Jr. is the author of More Guns, Less Crime (University of Chicago Press, third edition, 2010) and Gary Mauser is professor emeritus at Simon Fraser University."
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/21 22:51:34
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
ShumaGorath wrote:-National review.
-uncited sources.
-clearly biased language
-"John R. Lott Jr. is the author of More Guns, Less Crime (University of Chicago Press, third edition, 2010) and Gary Mauser is professor emeritus at Simon Fraser University."
ShumaGorath wrote:-National review.
-uncited sources.
-clearly biased language
-"John R. Lott Jr. is the author of More Guns, Less Crime (University of Chicago Press, third edition, 2010) and Gary Mauser is professor emeritus at Simon Fraser University."
My point is Shuma's drive by troll attack was wrong. The article was accurate.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/22 14:25:27
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Frazzled wrote:My point is Shuma's drive by troll attack was wrong. The article was accurate.
I didn't say it wasn't. I implied that it was brutally gakky journalism from a blatantly biased and hyper-political source. The exact kind this forum seems to adore.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/02/22 14:27:04
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/02/22 14:30:05
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Frazzled wrote:My point is Shuma's drive by troll attack was wrong. The article was accurate.
I didn't say it wasn't. I implied that it was brutally gakky journalism from a blatantly biased and hyper-political source. The exact kind this forum seems to adore.
And it was accurate.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/22 14:33:09
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Frazzled wrote:My point is Shuma's drive by troll attack was wrong. The article was accurate.
I didn't say it wasn't. I implied that it was brutally gakky journalism from a blatantly biased and hyper-political source. The exact kind this forum seems to adore.
And it was accurate.
Sure, in the barest facts that it didn't cite. Not that anyone here bothered to check in the first place until I brought it up. One would think a functioning adult would read something like that and go "Hmm, maybe I should look to see if it's bs or not" without having someone have to pop in and point out the painful lack of journalistic integrity.
One would think.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/02/22 14:37:36
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Thats a lot of inferences considering your original post had only one complete sentence. . .
Nope, no issues there.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/02/22 14:49:05
Subject: Canada Moves to repeal it's Long Gun registry
Frazzled wrote:Thats a lot of inferences considering your original post had only one complete sentence. . .
Nope, no issues there.
I infer an awful lot. I infer words like hot fire. I would never of accused you of having high standards in your chosen area of journalism. It was more an admonition of the rest of a thread that had earned my ire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/22 14:49:30
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" 
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