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Hello,

here is an attempt to rebalance the relatively recent Tomb King Army released in 8th Edition. While the book is capable of producing decent lists and holding its own, I feel that it does not quite 'close the gap' in terms of play experience and enjoyment. The army is close to being fantastic but let down by the occasional slip-up. I hope that this set of rules will help make the Tomb Kings a more enjoyable army to field and address many of the underlying problems with the book.
Its worth noting that I am well aware of how recent the book is, and how Wood Elves / Bretonnia / Dwarfs might deserve a new book first. This is purely some fan-thoughts on a great concept, which may have just missed its full potential.


Army Wide Rules

Animated Construct- Constructs will only ever suffer a single wound from being Unstable in a single round of combat.
The Hierophant- Remove the requirement for the highest Wizard level, but is still limited by Hieratic Hierarchy (See LHP entry). The Hierophant may choose to completely ignore a Miscast/Irresistable Force result by rolling equal-to or below his Wizard level, before any effects are rolled for.
Entombed Beneath the Sands- The decision to deploy via EBtS is optional. The token may not be deliberately placed under an enemy unit. However, if it should scatter underneath an enemy unit and there is sufficient space to deploy the Entombed unit in contact with them, the Entombed unit counts as charging the flank nearest the token. The enemy may not take any reactions agains this beyond Holding.
The Dead Legions- A unit of Nehekharan Undead that can claim 'Steadfast' will not become Stubborn. Instead, the unit may discount half (rounding up) of the wounds they would normally suffer from being Unstable.

Constructs can now support Skeletons in combat without being obliterated by Unstable. There is slightly more flexibility with your Hierophant, and he gets some genuinely useful upgrades that give a nod back to the old book. EBtS becomes slightly better and gives Scorpions some of their bite back without being instant death to enemy War Machines. The Dead Legions means that Steadfast is not a simple loss for Undead, but still provides some genuine benefit.



Tomb King- Reduced to 150pts. Gains access to Royal Warsphinx or Royal Chariot
Tomb Prince- Gains access to Royal Warsphinx or Royal Chariot
Royal Warsphinx- 175pts. The Character replaces all 4 of the Tomb Guard. Grants the character a total of +2 to Armour Saves due to the added height protection and howdah. May take a Fiery Roar for +35pts and/or Envenomed Sting for +10pts. Gains Stone Body- A Royal Warshinx has Heavy Armour (Total Save 3+) and is immune to the effects of Poison. However, they may only recover a single Wound from 'The Restless Dead' per magic phase.
Royal Chariot- The character changes his Unit type to Chariot (Character). The Chariot grants the Character an additional Wound and a bonus +1 to Armour Saves, and is pulled by 2 Skeletal Steeds. Note that the enemy cannot attack the Chariot, but rather it operates in a similar way to Monstrous Cavalry.

Liche High Priest
Gains Hieratic Hierarchy- Your first Liche High Priest (If taken) must be the armies Hierophant and take the Lore of Nehekhara. Subsequent High Priests may take the Lores of Death or Light as desired.

Tomb Herald- If his charge is mounted on a Royal Warsphinx or Chariot, the Herald may ride with him and gain any relevant bonuses to Armour.
Gains Field Commander- Gives My Will Be Done (WS4).

Necrotect- Stoneshaper is changed to grant +1 to Armour Saves, rather than a 6+ Regenerate.
Gains Supervisor- May be placed at the edge of a unit, exactly as though he had a different sized base.

The Warsphinx is now a realistic mount for Royalty. Taking a Chariot is essentially Monstrous Cavalry in execution, but with Impact Hits and a bigger base. Hieratic Hierarchy means that you can take a L3 Hierophant and L4 Light/Death if you like, but not a L1/2 Hierophant. The Heralds 'Field Commander' is a simple buff and also goes a long way towards helping Skeleton Horsemen, while the Necrotect gains some limited protection by avoiding large numbers of enemy infantry. His Stone-Shaper rule was changed because Stone is not really vulnerable to fire and so Regenerate seemed unsuitable.




Skeleton Warriors- Spears are a free replacement
Skeleton Horsemen- Reduced to 10pts per model.

Because spears are different, not an upgrade. I'd like to see hordes of Skeleton Spearmen like the fluff says, and combined with the Ward spell, it may actually make them a good choice. Horsemen just need a little push to make them worthwhile.



Tomb Guard- Halberds are reduced to +1pts/model
Tomb Scorpion- Gains an extra Wound.

Ushabti- Reduced to 42pts each. Gain Light Armour (4+ Save total), S5 base, and the Great Weapons are replaced with Halberds.
Tomb Swarm- Reduced to 25pts each. May be upgraded to Fly for +10pts/base.
Sepulchral Stalkers- Reduced to 48pts each. Misfires will inflict D3 hits against the firing unit. Roll to wound against the Stalkers Initiative as normal.

Khemrian Warsphinx- Reduced to 200pts each. Fiery Roar is increased to +35pts as an upgrade.
Gains Stone Body- Warsphinxes have Heavy Armour (Total Save 3+) and have a 2+ Ward Save against wounds inflicted via Poison. However, they may only recover a single Wound from 'The Restless Dead' per magic phase.

Various costs are altered and units being tweaked to become more viable. The Warsphinx has seen the most change, becoming far more resilient against weaker attacks. The 2+ Ward is intended to represent the crew being hit by a stray shot, who would still be vulnerable to poisons. The costs have been tweaked so that Fiery Roar is not such a no-brainer as it is currently, because S4 Breath weapons are incredible.



Necrolith Colossus- Cost increased to 190pts. Gains Heavy Armour (Total save 3+).
Unstoppable Assault- On the turn he charges, the Colossus may elect to make a 'sweep' attack. This causes a hit against every enemy in base contact and is resolved at I10. For every wound inflicted (After saves) he will gain a bonus attack at his regular Initiative. These will not generate further hits.

Necrosphinx
Gains Stone Body- Necrosphinxes have Heavy Armour (Total Save 3+) and are immune to the effects of Poison. However, they may only recover a single Wound from 'The Restless Dead' per magic phase.

Screaming Skull Catapult- Skulls of the Foe is reduced to +20pts as an upgrade.

The Necrolith gains a nice defensive boost and a much more reliable charge. The Necrosphinx gains some extra protection and the Skulls of the Foe are a more reasonable cost.



Lore of Nehekhara- All casting requirements are reduced by 1 when cast by the Hierophant.

The Restless Dead- Animated Constructs will recover a single wound per successful Casting. No characters besides Tomb Heralds may be healed from this Lore Attribute.
Incantation of the Desert Wind- May affect units in combat, meaning enemy units suffer -1WS when directing attacks against them. The upgraded version has a casting requirement of 12+.
Incantation of Protection- Range is increased to 18". The upgraded version has a casting requirement of 14+.
Incantation of Righteous Smiting- Range is increased to 18". The upgraded version has a casting cost of 16+.
Incantation of Dessication- Casting requirement changed to 10+. The upgraded version has a casting requirement of 18+.

I think the Lore has a lot of potential, but it is stumped by absurd casting requirements and pathetic ranges. Hopefully these changes will make it a proper option along Light and Death, even beyond the Hierophant. Desert Wind gains the extra effect purely so that it can affect, and thus heal, units in combat. Its worth noting that I agree that the Character should *not* be healable since the rituals are far more involved than those used on the masses.


That is the current state of this Errata. This is purely fan-tasy and has not seen any real support or testing, but I feel that it will help refine the list and make more units viable in a competitive format.
Any comments are greatly appreciated.

you act like you actually play the game and care about enjoying some sort of balance when building lists and playing other armies. (sarcasm)

I think all of these are worthwhile. I'm discouraged by GW's attempt at updating a book that was in great need of updating. Especially when comparing to what VC got.

I'm disheartened when I think about Brets and Wood Elves and Dwarves whose turn will come eventually. I hope someone who actually knows how the game is played will spend some time writing their books.

I see no problem in the TK book as is

Reducing wounds from Unstable isn't going to happen. Not when you can just heal them back. It is the signature of the entire army.

Ignoring miscasts just cuz you're a Heirophant also isn't going to happen. That's a BRB rule. The way you avoid miscasts is you don't cast. Or don't throw so many dice. Or take an item that can help.

Entombed Beneath the Sands- The decision to deploy via EBtS is optional. The token may not be deliberately placed under an enemy unit. However, if it should scatter underneath an enemy unit and there is sufficient space to deploy the Entombed unit in contact with them, the Entombed unit counts as charging the flank nearest the token. The enemy may not take any reactions agains this beyond Holding.

The first part is fine. The second part is not. All Ambushers have changed to not being able to attack first round in. Period. No one in 8th can. Rules to try and break what they fixed in 8th and go back to 7th won't fly.

Necrotect- Stoneshaper is changed to grant +1 to Armour Saves, rather than a 6+ Regenerate.

I guess. I don't know that's better than a Regenerate. You're generally getting a completely new save that can't be reduced except for flaming. They made it Regenerate because they presumably wanted the TK army to be susceptible to flaming. Whether they are too much is another question.

Ushabti- Reduced to 42pts each. Gain Light Armour (4+ Save total), S5 base, and the Great Weapons are replaced with Halberds.

Okay, I stopped reading here. You basically made Ogre Ironguts that are better and cheaper than Ogre Ironguts which are a Core choice for Ogres. TK are a horde army. Their MI and monster units are a bit overcosted because they are not designed to be them primarily. They are flavor and trickery and ways to compliment your army. TK != Ushabti. But when you start out-Ogreing Ogres with your horde casters, you need to rethink your buffs. Likewise, buffing TG, which are already horrendously-good (esp. with Nek spells) just seems wacky.

I also don't think TK are bad. The problem is that there are still armies out there that aren't converted to 8th and they are overpowered. O&G and TK they went very conservative with. Ogres are very powerful. Chaos Dwarfs are basically just Dwarfs with some insanely expensive war machines and spells and overpriced monsters and MI. I don't have vampires yet. But I'd recommend not trying and balance backwards TOO MUCH to stuff like WoC and Lizardmen and such. Your peer group is the other 8th books out. It's unfortunate that they release in a slow trickle and thus we have a balance gap. I don't think TK are top tier but they are competitive with some ingenuity. I believe they are just less forgiving than something like Ogres cuz yeah, you can miscast on your heirophant and doom your army. But you should know that, too.

My problem with the book is that there are many things that just dont work in 8th and it would be good if GW recognized and fixed them (it'll never happen but thats why we're talking) Several units are over priced to being useless (ushabti) Unstable is not fine, because you'll lose far more than you could ever raise back . The magic doesnt really work that well. You can really only reliably get 1-2 spells off a turn, which is going to raise back an average of 4 wounds. The fact that your big monsters will all disappear because they charged in to help a skeleton battle is not cool. They take 1 wound in combat (because they have no armor) and then 4 more from unstable (or more) and then all your monsters die. Then your army is gone. Even if they're still there, you can only raise 1 wound back which means they'll be dead next combat phase before they get to hit or thunderstomp.

The fact that if you put your character on a chariot and the chariot can't be healed is a huge crock as well. Here's a big unit of WS 5 chariots that are hard as nails with a Prince in them. Oh, you're just going to destroy his WS2 chariot. Oh, now my big chariot unit can move 4 inches because my Prince is on foot. That's cool.

The etombed rules make it so that you don't want to use any units with the rule, so theres another several choices down the toilet. I believe that every book should have multiple ways to play the army, not just one particular build that is head and shoulders above the rest. TK has one variation on a build, and then the rest of the army makes you feel like youre punishing yourself for using those units.

Johnny-Crass wrote:I see no problem in the TK book as is

I see minor problems with it, and they can be fixed pretty easily.

1) Opening up mount options for all characters to include chariots, horses, and sphinx, or even snakes.

2) Either lower point cost on Ubsati or allow more healing. Only them and Skeleton Horsemen suck in the whole book.

3) Add 1-2 Magic ranged weapons.

buckero0 wrote:Unstable is not fine, because you'll lose far more than you could ever raise back . The magic doesnt really work that well. You can really only reliably get 1-2 spells off a turn, which is going to raise back an average of 4 wounds. The fact that your big monsters will all disappear because they charged in to help a skeleton battle is not cool. They take 1 wound in combat (because they have no armor) and then 4 more from unstable (or more) and then all your monsters die. Then your army is gone. Even if they're still there, you can only raise 1 wound back which means they'll be dead next combat phase before they get to hit or thunderstomp.

I don't think you understand that TK is a horde army, not an elite army. You're saying wow, it sucks I can't keep my army permanently at full strength while fighting the enemy. Well, duh. Because that would mean other armies would be bashing their heads against a brick wall. That's the way vampires were in last army book and they can't do that any more.

Your big monsters die when they run off on their own? Cool. Don't let them run off on their own. Problem solved. No army in the game works well when units run out of BRB and IP range. Why should a crumbling undead army be different?

Etomb is a bad rule I admit. Mostly because it has to be activated. There are certainly multiple ways to play TK. Mass elites just isn't especially one of them. Other than TG which are already extremely good.

Ubshti are about 5 point over-costed. They are pretty comparable to Iron Guts, (who are 43), but have better weapon skill, but are slower. They are better than bulls (32 points) with better weapon skill, and better initiative, but not 18 points better.
Knock 5 points off them, and they are good.

Warsphinxes are one of the better monsters around, which makes many of the other special choices get over-looked.

Sphinx mania is pretty brutal. King of sphinx, prince on sphinx, 3 sphinxes as specials (all with fire breathe), bunker for a level 3, Colossus, and ~630 points of core.

It will have your opponent picking up whole units at a time.

-Matt

Tomb Kings are NOT primarily a horde army. The are primarily an elite army that relies on nonstandard mechanics to have high ws, high init, lethal troops

Their bulid philosophy allows for a horde option but it is substandard.

TombKings need a few fixes, to be sure... These go overboard IMO

Either you don't understand what elite and horde is, or you don't understand what TK are. They are a horde army. They're last book was a horde army as well. Their useable Core choices are dirt cheap. Adding a Prince/King to them can up their WS, that does not make them elite. It makes them horde with higher WS than the absolute crap they start with.

If you build your army around Chariots, then they are elite--in cost. But they are just high movement junk. Specials are just like their name implies: special. That is not the cornerstone of the army. Core is.

All your spells and special abilities are geared towards those horde infantry. They are vastly more effective when used on a horde. +1 attack on 100 guys, even with sucky attributes, is fantastically better than +1 attack on 6 guys. YOU are trying to make it so it works the same or better on their non-horde. But GW didn't design the army like that I'm afraid, which is what you're fighting against.

I agree with the Construct, Heirophant and Undead Legions rule changes (Legions especially, since it doesn't take a way the Crumble penalty, but lessens it when you fulfill a certain requirement that gives bonuses to everyone else)

However, EBtS, though it should be optional, should not allow charges.

I don't understand the reduction in price for the Tomb King (don't agree with it) and don't understand how the Royal Sphinx is cheaper than the regular sphinx when it has better rules. It should be the same price, there. The Chariot change, however, seems fine.

Heiratic Heirarchy makes little sense. Rather, word the rule thusly- "If one or more Liche High Priests are taken, one must be the Heirophant". I think this does what you were thinking of, without the odd 'first taken' wording- as there's not really an order to list building.

The Tomb Herald changes are brilliant.

Necrotect should still give Regen (6+), but it shouldn't be negated by Flaming attacks. I like Supervisor, though I don't think that it's necessary. Maybe "May join any unit with the Animated Construct rule"?

Free Spears is fine, but the Horsemen should stay the same price- simply reduce Light Armour to 1 point per model for them.

Tomb Guard and Tomb Scorpion, both fine. Lotsa people think those changes should happen.

Ushabti should stay at 5+ armour (as should all constructs- I'll get to that) and their current price. They're fine that way with the new Crumble rule. However, they should get a +1 boost to their Strength, with no other changes. Str 7 AsL is I think as good as Str6 at Init.

Tomb Swarms- no. Just... No. Fly for 10 points a base is fine, but they've got a substantial buff from the changes to EBtS, and are already pretty nasty.
Sepulchral Stalkers- well, that seems like a pretty good change, there.

Khemrian Warsphinx- I like the points adjustment here, actually. Stone Body is a fairly decent rule, but it has some pitfalls, as will be described.

Necrolith Colossus- WHY!? WHy would you Do That!? You boosted their cost and reduced their effectiveness? What? Unstoppable Assault in the book is literally unstoppable. It could keep going forever given enough models arrayed against it. That, sweep-thing you've put there is a laughable pale imitation, and armour upgrades don't justify the cost change with it. Keep it at the current points, and leave Unstoppable Assault alone.

Now, the Stone Body rule. First off, if you're gonna have a rule, it needs to be the same for all iterations of it- always have it be a 2+ Ward against poison. This represents the chance that a poison or venom is corrosive enough to harm the statuary. Second, Heavy Armour would not increase their Armour to 3+. The only reason the Knights have that is because they have Light Armour and Super Heavy Barded mounts- +1 LA, +1 Mounted, +2 stone Snakes. Also, Light Armour is already factored in to the 5+ on the Constructs, so Heavy would only go to 4+. Don't mention Armour Class in Stone Body. Instead, all the Constructs that you mention having Heavy Armour can get it as an Upgrade for 5-10 points each, and it only increases their save to 4+. That and the new Crumble is plenty.

Skulls of the Foe should be a little cheaper. That's fine.


Lore. Well, honestly, I think the lore's fine as-is, aside from a tweak to the Attribute for Constructs and Desert Wind. So pretty much NO to most of your changes here.

One change added, however, is that Skullstorm's Boosted form should Heal Friendly Nehekharan Undead units that it passes over, as though they were affected by the Restless Dead Lore Attribute instead of harming them. This means that the basic form is still just a normal average Magical Vortex weapon, while the Boosted version becomes worth the cast cost, becoming a mobile Heal bunker that enemies won't want to approach.



@Duke Rustfield- that's essentially exactly what Throne of Vines does in the Lore of Light- it's a cheap spell that ignores Miscasts on 2+, and does other buffs- and it remains in play until dispelled. Giving Heirophants, a single model in your army, at most a 50/50 chance to ignore Miscast seems absolutely okay for a model that's millenia old and tasked with bringing back the souls of entire armies from the dead. Maybe add +10 points for the Heirophant for that. Maybe.

Though there should be a 50-100 point magic item that allows a Priest to ignore miscasts, and instead channel that power into healing their unit.

DukeRustfield wrote: They're last book was a horde army as well.
.

This is quite possibly the most absurd statement ever uttered about the Tomb Kings.

I played the Tomb Kings last edition, I play them now, last edition there's no way in the world they could have ever been considered a "horde" army. 8 points per model at their very cheapest, and 9 points per model was the standard because your warriors needed light armor, makes for a far cry from the argument that 5 points per model was what justified a "horde". The Tomb Kings were an MSU elite army back then, relying on lightning fast attacks, and brute force to do their heavy lifting, picking where their combats occured, and getting the heck out of there.

This edition, the Khemrians can be played as a horde but it simply doesn't take advantage of all the tools Tomb Kings has to offer. The magic number for hordes is 1 model per 10 points, so if you're going to play 2500 point game, you have to come up with 250 models. I defy you to find one tournament winning army that has 250 models in it. I know I can find a throne of skulls dominating list that clocked in at roughly 145 models in 3k ponits, which is decidedly elite.

DukeRustfield wrote: They are vastly more effective when used on a horde. +1 attack on 100 guys, even with sucky attributes, is fantastically better than +1 attack on 6 guys.

Two arguments here,

1) Ask high elves players how well their hordes of spearmen and their amazing strength of three fare in the world of warhammer these days? They'll look at you like you're nuts, and tell you that without Mindrazor, they won't even consider large units of spearmen, instead electing to have their specials do the heavy lifting.

2) That +1 attack on chariots is actually +4 attacks per model, 1 per horse, and 1 per charioteer, so against most units, that's +16 attacks, and half of those attacks are str 4! On Snake surfers, it's +2 attacks. On a War-Kitty, it's +5 attacks. Compare that to a unit of spearmen, and at best you're going to get +10 attacks... at str 3.. So tell me again how the +1 attack spell is better on foot troops...

I know what Throne does. You have to cast it first. It's easy to dispel, in their turn or insanely easy in yours. No one in the game has a 50/50 chance of ignoring a miscast on every spell. Not the eldest Daemon who is actually constructed from magic. Not the greatest Lizardmen born at the dawn of time. Not some WoC Sorcerer directly imbued with power from the Dark Gods.

It's a 25 point item in Daemons to ignore ONE miscast. It's a 45 point item in Lizardmen to force the enemy to experience ONE miscast if you do on a 2+. It's a 20 point item in High Elves to ignore ONE miscast.

^ all of those guys make TK look like babies in terms of magic skill. And this rule is giving him that ability however many times he can cast. That's easily a 100 point item.

TK's greatest Special Character Nek caster can reroll ONE spell once a turn, and if miscasts again, tough luck.

As I said, I stopped reading because I think the OP wants TK to be an entirely different army type. And that's fine for house rules. Make then never miscast and Ushabti cost 30.

DukeRustfield wrote:Specials are just like their name implies: special. That is not the cornerstone of the army. Core is.

If I spend 50% of my points on specials, and 25% on core, I'd say special is the cornerstone of the army.
Point for point, specials in TK are far better than core, and the less core you take, the stronger your army becomes.

You just don't see successful tomb king armies with 40-50% core. 600 points goes a long ways, you could get 95 spearmen with full command for that.

-Mat

Doesn't matter what you spend. Core is the core of the army.

You can spend more on Lords + Heroes. It may "only" be 25% but it is a mandatory 25%. That is the minimum. There is a 0% min for Special and Rare and max limitations and duplicate chocies put on them. There's only a single General requirement in combined Hero + Lord with max limits placed on tham.

Core has no max and is the only one with a minimum. It is clearly the foundation of the army. You MUST take them, no matter what strategy you wish to pursue.

I personally tell people that if you don't like an army's Core choices, you probably shouldn't take them. As when you go up and down point levels of fights you're always going to have them there and it's going to be 25% of your army you dislike, which is an awful lot.

I think that the core units are solid, but really depend on your play style. I would like to only have chariots, but I need a mage bunker so I have archers. I cannot see myself having more than 3 core units at any point value.

1) MAge Bunker
2) chariot w/ King
3) Skeleton Horse Archers with mage.

DukeRustfield wrote:Doesn't matter what you spend. Core is the core of the army.

You can spend more on Lords + Heroes. It may "only" be 25% but it is a mandatory 25%. That is the minimum. There is a 0% min for Special and Rare and max limitations and duplicate chocies put on them. There's only a single General requirement in combined Hero + Lord with max limits placed on tham.

Core has no max and is the only one with a minimum. It is clearly the foundation of the army. You MUST take them, no matter what strategy you wish to pursue.

I personally tell people that if you don't like an army's Core choices, you probably shouldn't take them. As when you go up and down point levels of fights you're always going to have them there and it's going to be 25% of your army you dislike, which is an awful lot.

The army is what you put on the table. You couldn't say that my dark elf army is shooty because the army list has lots of repeating crossbows, when I've shown up with none.
I'd say tomb kings and high elves are pretty much the two armies that do the best when running minimum core. I'm not saying disregard that 25% of your army. By all means, find a roll for it and know how to use it. But also know that the rest of the list is likely going to do more of the work. By contrast, Ogre core is rock solid. You can build a very effective army out of just core units and characters. Same goes for warriors of chaos, dwarves, and a few others.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:You couldn't say that my dark elf army is shooty because the army list has lots of repeating crossbows, when I've shown up with none.

No, but you could say they are low Toughness. Furthermore, you could say they are Elves. And if you make a bunch of proposed rules to change the army to be high Toughness or they're really all Monstrous Infantry, I'd say that's not in the spirit of DE.

You pay an Army-tax for buying stuff that is contrary to the Core Concept of a specific army book. If you want high LD Orc units they are going to be Special and expensive. You want fast Dwarf unit it's going to be Rare and expensive. You want elite Skaven it's going to be Special and expensive. Etc. And in pretty much all those cases across all those armies, if you try and base your army around those off-concept units, you're going to get trashed. They are there for fluff, to help even you out, for fun. But if Rat Ogres were competitive with regular Ogres, Skaven would be gods and absurdly overpowered. One way you enforce uniqueness among armies is by forcing them to have 25% of their army Core minimum. You know those units will be there, it's who they are. This is just basic game design concept.

TK are their Core. Take a good look at it and see what you think the concept is for them.

Duke

Can you give me an example of a horde list that is competitive?

For TK?

Maybe the guy that won the last 'Ardboys? What was it, like 100 armored archers 50 wide, 2 deep, with Khalida and Herald with Banner of Eternal Flame. Monsters on flanks. That's 200, poison, flaming arrows a round at unmodifiable BS 3.

It was a direct counter to what people usually bring to that tournament.

That's a horde army?

Khalida
Lvl 4 heirophant - Earthing rod
BSB - flaming banner
Lvl 1 - light
89 archers full command 30 wide - although I had trays with me for 40 wide as well
2 * warshpinx with fiery roar
Necrosphinx
Casket of souls
2 * Screaming skull catapult
5 horse archers with champ

That was the list. That is not a horde. That is decidedly elite. It's not even close to a horde. That's 113 models in a 3000 point army. That's 28 points per model!!!!

Skaven armies are a "horde army", and they clock in at 10 points per model, TEN!

So again, I ask you, please give me a horde variant of an army. Because High Elves have this many models at 3k. And they are decidedly elite.

The # I gave is horde. Using an average which includes Lords and Heroes and Rares is meaningless. A Skaven Slave army with Lords and Abombs has a high average, it's still horde. Horde just means lots of cheap infantry.

When 78% of your units cost <8pts each, which is the army you listed above. That is horde. It is the overwhelming majority of the list. Average is pointless.

You're either being a troll or you really have no understanding of the concepts. Either way, TK simply might not be the army for you. Go Ebay them and grab yourself WoC or Ogres or something.

Tomb Kings are a fine army for me. I play them as an elite army, and I do fine with them. I don't think I'll be e-baying them any time soon.

I'm only challenging your misguided argument that the TK's are a "horde army". It's clear that you don't understand what a horde is in the most laughable of manners if you are myopic enough to compare that army to a Horde army.

Go ahead and keep on tossing straw-man logical fallacies around all you want, or ad homming me suggesting I don't know what a horde is. blah blah blah DILLIGAF. Or find a real horde army dominates the battlefield and shut me up. Any other dakkanaut on this board would look at that army and think "that's not a horde".

Of course, maybe you're really smarter than all of the rest of Dakka^2?

Ragnar4 wrote:Tomb Kings are a fine army for me.

Then why did you make a Proposed Rules that changed nearly every unit in the entire army to a large degree and all their Special Rules? Or do you just want them super-extra-fine? Or, like you said, you know better than GW like I know better than all of Dakka.

A Tomb Kings army in Warhammer is an impressive sight, massed ranks of skeletons, immense stone monsters and legions of chariots. It is an army that causes Fear, that will never break from combat and can even replace models that have been lost. The army is incredible flexible, allowing for an entire force mounted in chariots or riding on statues, you can do a massed horde with rank upon rank of Skeletons and Skeleton Archers, an army of monsters or a mixture of all the above.

The bulk of the Tomb Kings army will be made of Skeleton Warriors and Archers. These more than make up for their Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill 2 by causing Fear, being Unbreakable and, due to the Lore of Nehekhara, easily replenishable during the game. They are also incredibly cheap, at a cost of only 4 points per Skeleton.

^ Per GW's website. And while they mention an army of monsters as being possible, you still need 25% Core, none of which are monsters. And while Chariots are certainly elite, I haven't seen an effective army yet that was made up of them solo--though that doesn't mean it's possible. In any case, they advertise to prospective buyers the above, which lists horde multiple times.

Part of the problems with true hordes is the cost and time.
It's easy to experiment with 50 to 100 models. Want to try something with 300 models? What do you do if it doesn't work?

I've run dark elves very successfully as horde. 3 units of 60 spearmen. Works great. I had no idea how good ~40 S3 attacks with re-rolls was until I tried it. But outside of online games, I never would have purchased 180 guys to try it.

I think a lot of the competetive armies suffer from this. You won't typically drop $315 on an experiment.

At 2 and a half points, I'd bet that a boat load of Gnoblars would make a great army. Haven't tried it yet though, I've only got 120, I need 200. 20 units of 10 is brutal, but it's someting you have to face to understand.

-Matt

DukeRustfield wrote:
Then why did you make a Proposed Rules that changed nearly every unit in the entire army to a large degree and all their Special Rules?

Game, Set, and Match I guess. Can't argue with you. Well played sir, well played.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Part of the problems with true hordes is the cost and time.

At 2 and a half points, I'd bet that a boat load of Gnoblars would make a great army.

That is the problem with anything in WHFB or 40K. Everything is super expensive. I suppose you can use proxies to test. Or read battle reports. Or go to a GW store and borrow. But it's easier to proxy a shoe as a Land Raider than make up 200 proxies for a horde.

Gutt magic is clearly not designed for Gnoblar-buffing. OOOH, +1 S or +1T or Regen (okay, that's good). But Nek magic is clearly designed for buffing such a horde. Giving KB or +1A or ward save along with healing them. KB Gnoblars...

DukeRustfield wrote:The # I gave is horde. Using an average which includes Lords and Heroes and Rares is meaningless. A Skaven Slave army with Lords and Abombs has a high average, it's still horde. Horde just means lots of cheap infantry.

When 78% of your units cost <8pts each, which is the army you listed above. That is horde. It is the overwhelming majority of the list. Average is pointless.

You're either being a troll or you really have no understanding of the concepts. Either way, TK simply might not be the army for you. Go Ebay them and grab yourself WoC or Ogres or something.

If an army is dependant on expensive special characters and a couple of really expensive units, so that it puts relatively few troops on the field despite having very cheap core troops, then it isn't a horde army in the way that, say, Skaven are, where everything is so cheap you almost always end up with a very large number of troops on the field.

I mean, really, to determine is an army is really a horde army, what more sensible a question is there than 'how many troops does it typically put on the field?'

sebster wrote:

If an army is dependant on expensive special characters and a couple of really expensive units, so that it puts relatively few troops on the field despite having very cheap core troops, then it isn't a horde army in the way that, say, Skaven are, where everything is so cheap you almost always end up with a very large number of troops on the field.

I mean, really, to determine is an army is really a horde army, what more sensible a question is there than 'how many troops does it typically put on the field?'

Don't try to talk any sense into him Seb, it's an argument you can't win. If you do manage to get him over a barrell, he'll just make something up, like say, accusing you of having written the OP's post, and thus contradicting yourself, or he'll just say you don't understand the nature of the game, because Skeleton Warriors are 4 points per model, and they are core, so therefore they must be what makes up 25% of your army. Light Cav, Heavy Cav, and Chariots not withstanding.