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Hi Guys,
I have a 2000 pt tournament coming up this weekend and my army list is an all comers list using all the models I have. 15 other competitors are coming and we play four games each - knowing this there are two armies I fear with my present list - GK and mech guard.

I will place my list below for you to see - it has already been submitted and cannot be changed and the way it is arranged I start the tournament with the maximum possible tournament points.

HQ:

Abaddon - 275 pts
Typhus - 225 pts

Elites:

6 x terminators, 5 x combiplasma, Icon of tzeencht - 240 pts

7 x terminators, 5 x combiplasma, 1 x heavy flamer, icon of tzeencht - 275 pts

Troops:

6 x PM with meltagun - 148 pts
5 x PM with plasma gun - 130 pts
5 x PM with plasma gun - 130 pts
5 x PM - 115 pts
10 x CSM with icon of chaos undivided - 160 pts


Heavy Support:

2 x obliterators - 150 pts

1 x obliterators - 75 pts

1 x obliterators - 75 pts

Total = 1998 pts


What tactics should I use given my army that can beat 2000 pts of GK or mech IG ?

Im thinking deep strike in HQ, Elites and two of my three heavy supports - forces enemy to scatter there forces, flamer and plasma them then charge. Infantry capture objectives/territory last heavy support targets enemy heavy support as well as any surviving deep striking heavy supports

I know roughly the list of one of the GK and one of the IG players...

GK:
Draigo
2x rifledreads with autocannons and psybolts
2x predators
10 x terminators (deep strike)
1 x dreadnaught (drop pod)
rest are purifiers (drop pods)

IG
Yarrick
CCS - astropath, meltaguns
6 x autocannons
3 x missile launchers
lots of platoon guardsmen
3 x vets in chimeras with 3 melta in each squad
3 banewolfs
manticore
2 x hydra

Gk don't have drop pods or predators. Plus Draigo is terrible in that list since theres no pallys.

maybe they deep striked in - weird he had the 2 predators.... maybe he changed now to something more legal for tournament

what tactics can I use to beat these two armies ?

Well I can't speak for the GK but the mech IG list is...interesting.

Get rid of the Manticore ASAP, that thing, if used right will ruin your day. Chances are he's going to keep the Manti and Hydras in the back for cover fire, it's what I'd do. Get those oblits in his face and melta everything you can. His CCS even with Yarrick is a joke against Abaddon, and your PMs are more than a match for the vets in the chimeras.

Honestly, I'd try to tie up the transports and banewolfs with the Terminators. Use the PM's to hose down anything that tries to flank you.

Well hard to say for the gk since his army is illegal.

are you sure those were GK?

How many platoon guardsman, and do they have power weapons? if so, he will probably stick yarrick with them, not the CCS, and that can be dangerous. I know when i play in super large games that I run a 40 man platoon with yarrick, each squad with a power weapon and 3 comissars with power weapons. That comes out to be 8 power weapons that reroll to hit on the charge, plus all of the other guys. It can be painful. If Yarrick is with the CCS, that is a waste.

from watching them play he keeps yarrick at the front of the platoon blob, and that blob has 30 + models including command squads. I didnt see any other commissars in his platoon but its possible he does have some

with the GK I might be getting the names wrong... for sure he has terminators, draigo, 2 of those psybolt dreads, a close combat orientated dread and lots of infantry in space marine armor

anybody wasting points on yarrick really shouldnt be worried about.

Yarrick isn't a bad character, just overpriced for the specific cases in which you can use him. Like dajobe mentioned, if he's running a 40 man, 3 commissar strong power blob...that'll eat most anything in combat.

The only thing I can figure is template the powerblob as much as you can. Abaddon and Typhus might rock in the initial exchange but over time the Guardsmen will wear them down.

You have some nasty units arranged there. More notably the PMs. They're great at soaking up shots, so I'd try to keep him at range as long as possible. If he's running melta, he's gonna want to be in your grill fast.

thanks for the advice so far guys, Ill definatly be following the recommendations against the imperial guard - though I do feel a bit easier throwing my terminators and hq strait into close combat with the platoon blob after rapid firing the rear and side armor of vehicles - power weapons, higher initiave, 2 +/5+ saves

my terminators get 2 attack normally, +1 for charging and +1 for having a close combat weapon and bolter/combi. so they get 3 attacks normally and 4 on the charge. but then that leaves me exposed to those pesky 2+ poison tanks... yeah I think ill be following ur advice

so you guys think I should follow through with my plan and deep strike all my elites, hq and 2 out of 3 of my obliterator squads as close to the enemy as I can ? repeat this tactic against all enemies ?

Deepstriking Chaos!!!

Interesting, I suppose if your DS rolls are lucky, you can get your HQs (as long as their attached) and Terminators in together, that many TDA models, even with the ability to take storm shields are going to be hard to shift. I would probably recommend giving one of the squads at least MoT, 4++ saves are going to be more useful than being T5 I would think (also, try and fit a chain/power fist or two in both squads).

Do you have any more Obliterators? I try to stay away from recommending them, as I don't really like them (they never hit when I use them....). pair up the individual ones, and if you have another two, fit them in. Also if your Plagues aren't in Rhinos, just take two squads of 10, will be very durable, and probably keep them in reserve to walk on. Your CSM squad isn't doing much either, drop them for two Oblits if you have the models.

I think deepstriking 6 Oblits, 13 terminators and two special characters could work, it will be risky, but against GKs you can take out a few terminators with combi-plasmas and rapid fire, the Oblits will deal with armour fairly well. And then Abaddon (maybe Typhus, i'm not sure on him) will rip through everything in combat in the next turn.

yeah this will be some scary stuff if I can pull it off !

considering im going to deep strike so much stuff in - should I be aiming to take the first turn or make my opponent go first ??

remembering there are 15 other players in this tournament

I wouldnt charge a platoon full of power weapons with termies, because at max you are killing 20 and if it is 30+ guys with 6 or 7 power weapons, your termies will suffer3-4 termies easily. Just get some templates on the platoon and they will fall like crazy

dajobe wrote:I wouldnt charge a platoon full of power weapons with termies, because at max you are killing 20 and if it is 30+ guys with 6 or 7 power weapons, your termies will suffer3-4 termies easily. Just get some templates on the platoon and they will fall like crazy

Thats where shooting and target priority come in, if the IG player is using a blob squad, then its probably a good idea to either DS out of assault range, or DS both terminator squads close by and rapid fire it to death, will kill a fair amount. And if you place Abaddon's squad infront of the other, then Abaddon is going to kill a few more before they attack, and without Straken I believe they are only I3 on the charge, so the Terminators will also get to strike, I would suspect their would be a lot of dead Guardsmen before they even get a hit. And also thats were MoT works well, 4+ inv save helps a bit, and when your DS more than 5 Termies in, I think its an invaluable upgrade.

the plasma and heavy flamer I got along with charging into close combat plus 2 special characters that get 11 and 10 attacks respectivly on the charge or alternativly 10 and 9 normally - assuming those D6s for daemon weapons max out will eat through the platoon

then obliterators can take care of the other mobile vehicles as well as the plague marines with plasma guns behind cover and krak grenades for once I get that stunned result

Im worried though about the scatter dice ... the thorn in my side...

what to do about any of the compeditive GK builds out there atm ? What tactics should I use to overcome these guys ?

Well I don't know exactly what the competitive GK builds are, other than Purifiers and Razorbacks.... Haven't played against GK much. And never against Purifier spam, or Razorback spam, or henchmen spam, only against Termie/Paladin/Dread spam (not all at once).

Purifiers are going to go down quick to combi-plasmas, and Abaddon will eat them all in combat. So really its armour cracking your going to have a problem, and if your set on taking that exact list, your pretty much going to be relying on the 4 Oblits to do that for you, or combi-plasmas. Might be a good idea to start the Oblits on the bored maybe, can shoot LC from range then.

I really think you need to re-organise your troops section, its already 'tough' to win with Chaos, and your slightly jumbled troop section is not going to help.

Do you really have no other models? Or nothing you can borrow from someone?

Your 10 man CSM squad is pointless, I don't want to sound too harsh, but its not going to do anything, unless something rubbish comes near it. You have 4 small squads of Plagues, not in rhinos and not doubling up on weapons. At the very least i would merge the Plague squads into two 10 man squads if your not able to take rhinos. It'd be pretty useful if you have anything, a Predator, even something average like Dreadnought, or melta bikes....

I agree with ur assesment of the troop selection, but I was making the best I could of a bad situation in regards to the way composition points go for this tournament and the amount of models I had assembled and painted by the due in date for the list.

I hope to finish mid level at the best in the comp - but with my completed list which is in another forum I hope to do better.

I have some more info on my opponents

IG
Same as before but is taking 3 x 7 man psycher squads in addition

Grey Knights
two of those 4 wound dreadnaughts
2 of those psynaughts
dreigo
3 terminator squads

Deathwing

Bellalial
5 x 5 man squads with shields, assault cannons and cyclone launchers
3 typhoon speeders
2 vindicators
2 venerable ? dreadnaughts
special character on what looks like an eldar bike but has plasma cannons

Orks

3 battlewagons with deathrollars
2 looted tanks
2 trukks
lots of boys
commandos
snitkrot or someone.... the commando special character
big mek to lead army with custom force field

Vanilla marines - all on bikes each guy is like 70 pts a pop....

3 x 2 attack bikes with multi meltas
3 x 6 man squads with 1 melta and 1 multimelta
command squad all on bikes -almost 400 pt unit, with storm shields, apothrecary, captain, thunder hammer, power fists, duel lightning claws, plasma pistols/guns. captain is initative 6 !!

Blood Angles

5 honour guard, banner, dante
astroth the grim
3 x 10 man assault squads with priests and meltas and pwr fists
5 scouts
2 x 5 man devastator squads one with all lascannons the other with all missile launchers
3 speeders of somesort
3 attack bikes with multi meltas

Death company
12 dreadnaughts including one librarian dread
librarian with jumppack and forceweapon
20 assault marines with assorted stuff

Necrons
lots of special characters and guards that teleport whereever they want, cause night fighting and difficult terrain around the board
20 warriors in transports
3 death things with duel guns on their undercarriage and hover above the ground
10 immortals

tau
2 x commanders - not sure if they are special characters + drones
3 x 2 crisis battle suits with melta like guns plus other stuff + drones
3 x fire warriors in transports - transports have 5 pt upgrade that give them invul save of 4 + or something an another one that if you attack them in close combat every guy needs to make an armor save
3x2 broadside battle suits + drones

so this plus my list makes 10 of the 16 lists in sundays tournament

what tactics do you guys recommend I use to win my games ? ALL games are spearhead deployment and we roll for turns and objectives as normal

Should I want to take first turn or not in my games ?

Against the 12 Dreads, just concede because the army is soo cool

The Guard army just got better, with the Psykers, although i'm not sure 2 squads is necessary. They are going to destroy your Terminators, because they aren't fearless, i'm fairly sure the characters joining also lose fearless. So basically, I think they might have to be your priority target, otherwise they will just reduce your LD and then kill 25% and make you run away, and probably chase you off the bored with Chimeras...

GK are taking 4 HS? Or are the two Dreads venerable? anyway, its going to be a case, of who gets to shoot each others terminator squad first... if your Deespstriking, the GK will probably also deepstrike, it will be a close game I reckon. Abaddon can take Terminators and Dreadknights in comabt though, not sure about Draigo.

That deathwing list has loads in it, this a 2000 point tournament? Without me knowing exact points, I reckon just Belial, the Terminators, Speeders and vindicators comes to around 1750, ven Dreads are going to be minimum 150, and Sammuel (bike character) is around 200 I think. But anyway, with 5 Terminator sqauds, its going to be about focus fire, try and take a squad at a time, 5 combi-plasmas will do a bit of damage, but not enough with SS.

I'm still struggling to give you great advice, because your troops suck, but as you've said there are reasons why your taking them like that, and can't really be helped this time around. But having to rely on DS termiantors, special characters and Oblits is dangerous.

Orks is going to be tough, the Boyz are going to be hard to take down because of the 'lots', Snikrot is also going to cause havoc to your troops, since their not in transports, he'll come on behind and have fun killing them. I actually think throwing Abaddon into Ork Boyz is the best way of dealing with them, with minimum of 5 (well 0) attacks, he can kill quite a few, then either fearless or low LD will take care of a lot more. He'll presumably rush the tanks forward, even if your DS a large chunk of your army, meaning you can get combi-plasams and Oblits in behind and blow them up easily.

Probably your best chance of a win, against the Bikes. Especially sine he's going all Melta and CC command squad, he has to get close, which Terminators and Abaddon will like. I would aim as much Oblit/combi-plasma at the command squad as necessary to take most/all of it out, with SS and all that weaponry its going to be dangerous to assault, and then the rest of the bikes, again its target saturation/priority, take out a squad at a time.

Blood Angels, i'm not sure about, its a pretty well rounded army I think, got the DoA element, which will make it harder for your deep striking, but also the Devs, Scouts, Speeders and attack bikes which will probably all start on the bored. If your playing objectives, take out his Assault Marines first, if your playing kill points, take out his weak things, speeders, attack bikes, scouts and Devs. You have deep striking things, so place them well and you can kill these things fairly easily.

Dreadnought list wins, its full of win, and you shouldn't even hope to beat it because its so win!!! I like Dreads Oblits are going to be KEY here, also you should change you list to fit in at least one, if not two or three Chain/PF in your terminator squad (just drop 5 PMs), your not going to kill enough dreads otherwise. Try and drop in behind, your combi-plasmas will be able to kill a couple on rear armour then.

Don't know anything about new Necrons, taking down characters seems key. Also, only 20 troops. Your going to DS near to things, so night fighting won't be a major issue.

Tau, just deep strike as close to as many things as you can, and take them down, multi-assault as much as possible, they all suck in combat, especially against things that are good in combat (Terminators, Abaddon...) If say a 6 terminators survive, you might as well split the character off, assault a unit with him, then assault two units with the 6 terminators, if positioning allows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahh first turn, it depends. Against the GK (if they are Deep striking) and BA list with DoA, no not really (unless kill points against the DoA).

Depends on how much of your stuff your keeping in reserve, if you go second, thats one less turn of shooting your enemy gets against your deep striking units, and also its good for objective games to go second.

sumi808 wrote:
Grey Knights
two of those 4 wound dreadnaughts
2 of those psynaughts
dreigo
3 terminator squads

I am assuming this is Draigo Wing and you are just using the wrong words..

The 2 Psyflemen would have to be venerable to be legal... So deal with them how you normally would with any AV 12 but be ready because he can have you reroll damage.

The Dreadbaby carriers can look intimating, but as far from what I've seen they are better at tarpitting. Sure they can do damage but they are better at holding something there till back up can arrive.

The terminator squads you are talking about are probably paladins, they are 2 wound terminators that make wound allocation a pain.

The HQ can make the Dreadbaby carriers SCORING!

All that said.

I don't know much about CSM but what I do know is I generally see 2 squads of 2 oblitz, and they hunker in cover, they priority focus on my psyflemen (I run more than your opponent in smaller games) because they know that is my only anti-tank shooting, and my only long range unit. Once they have naturalized my psyflemen they move on to take out other things to slow me down... I know when I face CSM I have to eliminate their oblitz or the game is going to be harder than I would like. If you can watch your opponent before the tournament. See how he runs the list, what does he depend on too much? Generally cause GK are an "Elite" force if you can find their hinge pin and knock it out the rest of the army crumbles, example in my list if you can take out the dreads and the storm raven I can't force your movements with my dreadnoughts, and I can't intercept your deathstar with my DCA's.

You are correct the terminators have 2 wounds - this sounds like the build he is using

ok - the tournament has concluded

we had 16 players meaning the armies plus mine that I have written before makes 10 and the other 6 were spacewolf with logan, blood angles descending all from pods, dark eldar, black templars, another ork and imperial guard. The deathwing ended up not having the 2 vindicatres and the speedwing special character, though he owns them.

The ork and imperial guard were awesome - two imperial guards were almost identical with one being a mirror of the other, as the guy who made it (jason) is genius. In the 2000 pt tournament he had;

HQ

CCS 4 x pg + astropath + chimera with heavy bolter
CCS 4x pg + master of ordinance + chimera with heavy bolter

Elites

9 man psycher battle squad x 3

fast attack

banewolf + heavy flamer + extra armor + dozer blade x2
vendetta + heavy bolter sponsors

Heavy support

hydra
hydra
manticore

Troops
Vet with 3 melta + chimera with heavy flamer and dozer blade x 2
PCS 4 x flamers + chimera with heavy bolter
3 x 10 many squads with autocannons and commissars (not sure how many commissars)

This fella ended up winning best painter and won all 5 games

Best general went to orks who tabled 3 of his 5 opponents and beat the other two, but was almost last for painting

His army was;

HQ
Warboss,PK,shoota/scorcha,attack squig, cybork body, warbike - strength 10 toughness 6 character, Whoa !!

Heavy support
10 lootas
battlewagon,kill kannon 4 bs, ard case, lobba

elites
10 commandos with 2 burna and snikrot
10 stormboyz nob zagstruk
5 nobz on warbikes, painboy,pks, waaagh banner, orderly, bosspole, 2 bc, shoota/scorchas

troops
7 nobz, painboy, eavy armor, 2 pk, 2 bc, boss pole, orderly, shoota/scorches, waagh banner + battlewagon,deff rolla, lobba, giot riggers
10 gretchin + runtherder
3 x 12 boyz , nob, pk, big shoota with trukks, reinforced rams and 2 x grot riggaz

I ended up winning against bellalial deathwing list, blood angels, lost to dark eldar, eldar and drew withorks - all games were spearhead deployment with 5 objective markers and 5 turn random game length.

I picked up 3rd place for painting my army and the best sportsman prize IT WAS AWESOME !!! Really didnt think I was gonna get it, considering how funny two of my opponents were and honest my deathwing one was.

Terminators and special characters kicked ass deep striking in ! Against deathwing abaddon and his group didnt show up until turn 5 and monstered 10 termis; 7 with powerfists, 2 sergents and 1 shield hammer dude to claim the objective in one turn, the turn the game ended lol. Against the eldar they monstered them in shooting and combat eventually loosing due to the enemy being initative 6 and having some gladiator woman on combat drugs or something an with a million upgrades.

The only thing that didnt go well for me in the tourny was my lack of numbers in a 2000 pt game, looking back on it, I would of been better off loosing composition points with my troops and spending that 150/160 on 2 more obliterators or havoks with 4 autocannons. Once my heavy support was killed I was in trouble unless they had caused alot of pain before they died.

Army Analysis:
1. Against fast armies ie eldar take the first turn and gun them down, all you need to do is stun them and they on foot and plasma cannon fodder
2. Other armies, take the second turn, let them come into your rapid fire range and keep whittling down their numbers. castle up best you can and hug as much cover and difficult terrain as you can
3. Deep strike termies and special characters behind their lines into their weakest troops choices and have fun !
4. Lacks heavy fire power
5. lacks numbers
6. open boards are death to this list - need as much cover as you can get
7. combiplasma are not that great on terminators, though they can rapid fire even when you move which is awesome, I lost too many termies to overheating and failing armor saves.... I mean its 20 strength 7 ap 2 shots or 5 strenth 8 ap 1 ..... dunno...
8. having so many plague marine squads is great though, they were as tough as nails taking alot of fire and not dying an acted as good tarpits. CSM as was mentioned previously are rejects an a waste of points, never taking unmarked troops again
9. I did not come up agains the power builds that I was scared of ie the all biker vanilla marines, gk, mech guard - so against these guys its still untested, though im sure it will stuggle unless the dice are with my and I dont make tactical errors, which I did a plenty today

Overall a fun day and im stoked that the list actually worked out alright ! Though if I had been against that guard, ork or all dreadnaught lists I would of been in deep dakka dakka

PS

I just realised I have not talked about typhus - he is beast ! He did just as well as abaddon, and I feel that the complaints about his toughness are not that warrented. Because the charge with the terminators and his poisoned daemon forceweapon makes sure that even if a power fist survives all that the hit will be allocated to the squad of termies then in the next round of combat it dies.

Force weapons screw opponents hard, especially when he gets minimum 5 attacks each turn lol

Abaddon and typhus go down easy to enemy shooting after winning combat and consolidating, because after they wipe out enemy units opponents focus their entire armies on these two units, multi assault is the key here and making sure the enemy has some units left. So in his next turn you finish him off, consolidate then in ur turn, move, shoot and multi assault again

multi assault is how to keep the special characters here alive, I found in my battles. But against the tougher lists, who I did not play, Im not sure

sumi808 wrote:PS

I just realised I have not talked about typhus - he is beast ! He did just as well as abaddon, and I feel that the complaints about his toughness are not that warrented. Because the charge with the terminators and his poisoned daemon forceweapon makes sure that even if a power fist survives all that the hit will be allocated to the squad of termies then in the next round of combat it dies.

Just one thing, you don't get to allocate.
If a model is within base to base (and any others not in base to base, within 2 inches) of Typhus (or any IC/Unit) they direct all their attacks to that IC...
I'm sure he's pretty good in combat, but against GKs, I don't see him lasting one round, PFs are also dangerous. I just think for 225 points, without giving any bonus' to the rest of the army he's a tad overpriced. But still you had a good time with him, so all is well.