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Whilst playing a 1500 pt game the other day as Black Templar, another player pointed out that bolter-equipped Space Marines have 3 attacks on the charge (1 base +1 for bolt pistol (standard issue) +1 for charge), where I thought it was two.

I argued that because Templars don't explicitly say they have bolt pistols unless wielded alongside a chainsword, they only get two. He insisted that I ignore my codex and follow the newer Space Marine codex - including giving all my Templars krags and frags for free.

Now I'm not sure what I'm asking of you all here, but:

Firstly I don't like taking rules from other codices, even if Templars are a generation behind - should I be doing that at all?

Secondly, my understanding what that the pistol was the assault weapon - do Space Marines get 2 base attacks? Also if it is standard issue, would it not be included in the stats?

As stupid as this all may sound, I am new and I'm very confused. Please give input.

If you're playing a Black Templar army, you only follow the rules of the Black Templar Codex and the Black Templar FAQ. The Space Marine codex has no impact on anything printed in another codex, even if the models are almost the same.

As for the bolt pistol, it would only provide an additional attack if it is wielded with a second close combat weapon, a pistol by itself won't.

He was wrong on both counts as Jidmah said.

SM don't have 1 base attack for free. They get one base attack from having a bolt pistol. Plus one attack from charging.

The reason they got bolters and bolt pistols in the latest codex is so that they could fire the bolt pistols and still assault. A marine equipped with only a bolter cannot fire if he wants to assault.

kmdl1066 wrote:He was wrong on both counts as Jidmah said.

SM don't have 1 base attack for free. They get one base attack from having a bolt pistol. Plus one attack from charging.

The reason they got bolters and bolt pistols in the latest codex is so that they could fire the bolt pistols and still assault. A marine equipped with only a bolter cannot fire if he wants to assault.

What? Please clarify then bolded part.

Actually, that's wrong.

Regular Marines have 1 Attack base (Profile)
Charging adds one bonus Attack.
Having a pistol and a close combat weapon adds a second bonus attack.

I agree.

That's why I am looking for a clarification.

Mike Zulu wrote:
Whilst playing a 1500 pt game the other day as Black Templar, another player pointed out that bolter-equipped Space Marines have 3 attacks on the charge (1 base +1 for bolt pistol (standard issue) +1 for charge), where I thought it was two.

You were correct. Normal C:SM get two attacks on the charge. You need two single handed weapons to get an extra attack. Bolters are not single handed. Ask your opponent where the second one is, since the bolt pistol is one.

Mike Zulu wrote:
I argued that because Templars don't explicitly say they have bolt pistols unless wielded alongside a chainsword, they only get two. He insisted that I ignore my codex and follow the newer Space Marine codex - including giving all my Templars krags and frags for free.

Uh no. You never go to a different codex for rules to your army now. Ever. Ask him where permision is to do this. Now when you as a BT player with BP/CCW initiates charges you get 3 attacks. If they get charged, 2. Although free frags and kraks would be amazing, no we still have to pay for them.

Mike Zulu wrote:
Secondly, my understanding what that the pistol was the assault weapon - do Space Marines get 2 base attacks? Also if it is standard issue, would it not be included in the stats?
As stupid as this all may sound, I am new and I'm very confused. Please give input.

The bolt pistol is included under wargear for C:SM, and like I said you need 2 single handed weapons to get the extra attack. You may also want to look up the BT faqs since some of our wargear actually has been updated to fall in line with normal marines.

Jidmah wrote:Having a pistol and a close combat weapon adds a second bonus attack.

Not exactly. Having two close combat weapons adds a bonus attack. And, a pistol is a close combat weapon. So, you can get a bonus attack from having two chainswords, two pistols, a power sword and a chainsword, or any other combination of close combat weapons. (Special close combat weapons have additional restrictions).

Steelmage99 wrote:I agree.

That's why I am looking for a clarification.

There's no clarification possible, because his statement was outright wrong. SM (or any other model) have a set number of base attacks. They don't need any close combat weapon (or any weapon at all) to actually make these attacks.


Also, to the OP: Make sure to check out the Black Templar FAQ found here http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620223a_Black_Templars_Version_1_1.pdf

BT did get a ton of changes to bring them more up to date.

Grakmar wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Having a pistol and a close combat weapon adds a second bonus attack.

Not exactly. Having two close combat weapons adds a bonus attack. And, a pistol is a close combat weapon. So, you can get a bonus attack from having two chainswords, two pistols, a power sword and a chainsword, or any other combination of close combat weapons. (Special close combat weapons have additional restrictions).

To be read in context. You have to have a pistol and a close combat weapon, as opposed to just a pistol. That close combat weapon can again be a pistol.

Jidmah wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Having a pistol and a close combat weapon adds a second bonus attack.

Not exactly. Having two close combat weapons adds a bonus attack. And, a pistol is a close combat weapon. So, you can get a bonus attack from having two chainswords, two pistols, a power sword and a chainsword, or any other combination of close combat weapons. (Special close combat weapons have additional restrictions).

To be read in context. You have to have a pistol and a close combat weapon, as opposed to just a pistol. That close combat weapon can again be a pistol.

Yeah, I think we're in agreement. I just prefer giving more general answers, in case someone else stumbles across the thread, sees your post, doesn't understand the context, and gets the wrong idea.

I have read the FAQ.

The main issue was that I didn't understand why Space Marines got 3 attacks. I also didn't understand why people were insistent I ignore my own codex.

I felt like there was something I missed...

Thank you all, anyways.

Mike Zulu wrote:I have read the FAQ.

The main issue was that I didn't understand why Space Marines got 3 attacks. I also didn't understand why people were insistent I ignore my own codex.

I felt like there was something I missed...

Thank you all, anyways.

You didn't understand that because it's wrong! Space Marine Tactical Squads don't get three attacks; the most they can get is two. Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, Terminators, and HQ units can have more.

Don't ignore your own codex. Use what's there. In some ways it'll be worse than more modern codexes and in some ways better; just take the rough with the smooth, and don't let people buffalo you into playing a certain way if you don't want to.

Ok. I guess I need to stand my ground with my own codex rules and interpretations.

Mike Zulu wrote:
I argued that because Templars don't explicitly say they have bolt pistols unless wielded alongside a chainsword, they only get two. He insisted that I ignore my codex and follow the newer Space Marine codex - including giving all my Templars krags and frags for free.

I'm going to start ignoring my codex and use other codex's all the time now! I'm going to give all my ASM the we'll be back rule from the necron codex!

You can have WBB, I'm giving all my HQ choices (including Warlocks) Ever-living. Oh, and a Rez Orb. And I'm giving my Guardians Rupture Cannons...

Happyjew wrote:You can have WBB, I'm giving all my HQ choices (including Warlocks) Ever-living. Oh, and a Rez Orb. And I'm giving my Guardians Rupture Cannons...

ooooooooh I should have thought of that one!

Well, my sluggas are inferno pistols now.

Hell, all my SM bikers are equipped with the Talon of Horus & Drachn'yen. and SS's.

Steelmage99 wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:He was wrong on both counts as Jidmah said.

SM don't have 1 base attack for free. They get one base attack from having a bolt pistol. Plus one attack from charging.

The reason they got bolters and bolt pistols in the latest codex is so that they could fire the bolt pistols and still assault. A marine equipped with only a bolter cannot fire if he wants to assault.

What? Please clarify then bolded part.

Careless wording but it's been clarified by others. I was so keen to explain why SM are equipped with a bolt gun and bolt pistol that I didn't pay enough attention to what I was writing.

I was just trying to say that the SM doesn't get one attack from the profile plus one attack for having a weapon. Functionally, it doesn't matter whether the SM is using a bolt pistol (normal close combat weapon) , rifle butt (two-handed close combat weapon), or head butts and mean words I guess, the SM will get 1 attack, before modifiers, because that is the number of attacks listed in the profile. Whereas an Ork with the same weapon would get 2 attacks, before modifiers, because that is the number of attacks listed in the profile.