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Any criticism would be appreciated.

How I play: heavy reserves. I place out my hq, 2 or 3 broadsides, and occasionally my pathfinders if terrain permits. Deepstriking my suits nearly 95% of the time.

The tourneys lately have been MEQ and transport heavy (nice to have codexes that give transports away at 35 points a piece), and my suits are designed to counter that problem.

Just to nip this in the bud right away: fireknives
I know they are sworn by and I have fielded them MANY times, but lately I have found out that it has been a folly due to wound allocation. stacking the AP 2 shots upon similar models and soaking up the AP 4 missiles.

The other thing to nip is using a stealth cloud: I would gladly do so except for the fact that I don't have enough XV15's nor enough drones due to shield drone conversions.

here is the list:

% of Army: 6.404

Unit cost: 96
XV8 Shas'el
--- [, TL Missile pod, Positional relay, HW Drone controller, Gun Drone, HW BS filter]

++++ [Elites] ++++

Points: 554
% of Army: 36.95

Unit cost: 201
XV8 Shas'ui TL
--- [TL Fusion blaster, Plasma rifle, HW Multi-tracker]
XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Plasma rifle, BS Filter]
XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Plasma rifle, Drone controller, Shield Drone]

Unit cost: 201
XV8 Shas'ui TL
--- [TL Fusion blaster, Plasma rifle, HW Multi-tracker]
XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Plasma rifle, Drone controller, Shield Drone]
XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Plasma rifle, BS Filter]

Unit cost: 152
XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Missile pod, BS Filter]
XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Missile pod, Drone controller, Shield Drone]
XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Missile pod, Target lock]

++++ [Troops] ++++

Points: 350
% of Army: 23.34

Unit cost: 145
6x Fire Warrior 'la
--- [Pulse rifle]
Devilfish
--- [Burst cannon, 2x Gun Drone, Landing gear, Disruption pod]

Unit cost: 145
6x Fire Warrior 'la
--- [Pulse rifle]
Devilfish
--- [Burst cannon, 2x Gun Drone, Landing gear, Disruption pod]

Unit cost: 60
6x Fire Warrior 'la
--- [Pulse rifle]

++++ [Fast Attack] ++++

Points: 145
% of Army: 9.673

Unit cost: 145
5x Pathfinder 'la
--- [Pulse C./ Marker]
Devilfish
--- [Burst cannon, 2x Gun Drone, Landing gear, Disruption pod]

++++ [Heavy Support] ++++

Points: 354
% of Army: 23.61

Unit cost: 118
XV88 'ui TL
--- [TL Railgun, TL Plasma rifle, A.S.S., HW Multi-tracker, HW Drone controller, Shield Drone, HW BS filter]

Unit cost: 118
XV88 'ui TL
--- [TL Railgun, TL Plasma rifle, A.S.S., HW Multi-tracker, HW Drone controller, Shield Drone, HW BS filter]

Unit cost: 118
XV88 'ui TL
--- [TL Railgun, TL Plasma rifle, A.S.S., HW Multi-tracker, HW Drone controller, Shield Drone, HW BS filter]
-----------------------
Total model count: 39

Thank you for looking and hopefully commenting,
Travis Walthall

It Pulled off 4th place out of 47. Thank you for the 50 of you that looked at the list.

Waffles

I think that you should look at this link. It's not your playstyle, but it would show you how to deploy. It sounds like you like deep striking. If you deep striking, its just another turn you aren't shooting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUYq93vdWIs

NO offense to you or the person showing the tutorial, but I personally think that is a very stupid way to play.

half of your whole strategy is that the kroot will keep things away from you. only having 16 and 13 kroot respectively will decimate you. all someone has to do is kill 4 kroot and they will run. with them stretched out like that, most likely they will not get a cover save unless you go to ground. With no armor, bolters will rage havoc and with only a leadership of 7, most likely you are gonna run with 1 of the two squads.

Now the tank wall is effective and has been used for a long time, but you have to move slowly with the tanks, only about 8 inches, so that the suits can jump out at an angle to get their shots off and then jump back in to cover. It works and is effective, but there is one downfall: shot distance.

Yes, we have the all mighty missile pod. I love the thing, hence the reason I field a squad of deathrains, but they have a HUGE weakness: AP 4. With nearly 60-75% of the tourney armies being of MEQ's, these missile pods dont hurt them. Yes yes, they have a strength 7 which gives you a wound of 2+, but it takes 3 missiles to kill one bloody marine. Also wound allocation.

Everyone swears by fireknives. I once did as well. It has AMAZING versatility, but that versatility will kill you and here is why: WOUND ALLOCATION.

Normal 6 man assault squad of marines (Sargent, melta, flamer, 3 bolters) vs 3 crisis suit team with fireknives.

Lets say you get lucky and you are within rapid fire range,hit with 4 and 5 due to an added marker light (thank you pathfinders), and, with the amazing strengths of these weapons, wound everything

thats 4 plasma and 5 missile pods.

Well well well, thats 4 marines insta dead from plasma and 5 armor checks, which means that the rest are dead statistically.

NOPE (Chuck Testa's Revenge)

instead the marine player puts the plasma on the three bolters and a flamer, and then puts the 5 missile pods on the sergeant, melta, and the three bolters. This is perfectly legal and with only 2 3+ saves, most likely they will live to come after you (got to love a leadership of 10).

Same scenario with 2 TL PR, a TL FB, and a PR.

With the same marker light, you get 5 plasma and 1 FB hit. Once again, you get all wounds.

thats 6 ap 1/2 hits and with wound allocation now, the entire squad is dropped to ashes.

Deepstriking ensures me that my units get within the 12 inch rapid fire. As long as I take out the unit I am after, I am fine.


I know this was a bit of a rant, but I just want people to know that there are multiple ways to play Tau, and for some reason most players get uneasy to see another Tau player doing something 'out of the norm.'

Waffles

allies333 wrote:I think that you should look at this link. It's not your playstyle, but it would show you how to deploy. It sounds like you like deep striking. If you deep striking, its just another turn you aren't shooting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUYq93vdWIs

Allies333, that isn't you, is it?

TW - List looks fine. 'Rant' was totally unnecessary and detracts from the thread.

jazzpaintball wrote:Any criticism would be appreciated.

Before I even critique, may I just ask if you play casually, semi-competitively, or Competitively?


FYI, i belong to the category of people who swears by the fireknife, as well as kroot wall.

Your list looks fine for less competitive metagame, but definitely has no way to put up even a fight against competitive armies out there.

This list was competitive.

I play all three of those categories, but the people I game against are in the more competitive setting.

Just to let you know, I am also a kroot player, but I just like larger forces with lots of hounds for the first strike due to initiative and usually outflank them.

As far as Fireknives, they are the most versatile system in the Tau armament, but the wound allocation does cause problems with the high strength, low and high AP weapons.

Now I would always Like some criticism in the list, but I will always put my opinions out there. It is not that I am fighting anyone, but I would like a bit more of an esplanation on why to field A instead of B than A is better than B, so put more A in.

The bottom line of your comment does bother me since I have placed 3rd and 4th in my last two tourneys with lists close to this. Why don't you think that this will put up a fight? What would change that? Please let me know this instead of "your list sucks."



Waffles

Seems alot of thought was put into this list. I respect Tau, they're very easy to do horrible with if you don't know what you're doing, thats why alot of people call them the worst army, bullcrap. Tau can be wicked if the player knows what he's doing. I play in new york and the guy who's won the last few torneys plays tau, he schooled my crons quite a few times and beat much better armies easily. Also fluff wise you're the only race that can sorta be called good guys, prob will change when ward makes ya grimdark. Us xenos players need to stick together, because quite frankly I'm sick of power armor, sick of rhinos, sick of librarians, sick of the emperor, sick of the same boring parking lots and spam units. Kudos Tau guy if you came in 4th in a big torney, keep on crushing imperials!

Crap that was really off topic let me actually talk about your list.

What do you usually reserve, do the suits often deep strike (the fireknives I mean not the deathrain). Is the plasma guns on the broadsides worth it, it seems to me that I'd want to keep my broadsides as far as humanly (fish-goataly) possible from scary stuff and the extra range from the missiles would be better. How exactly does the fish of fury thing I hear people bitch about work? Do you do it?

thank you 0k for the kind words, and YES to the xenos sticking together.

This list is built with reserves in mind. I usually only take my commander in and 2-3 broadsides. I will put the pathfinders in first turn if i can get the cover to protect them. The positional relay on the commander is not for bringing units on, but rather keeping my units off the board. I follow the idea of Hunter Cadre. Lead the sheep to slaughter. As the enemy comes charging after me onto my side of the board, I let open the flood gates and let my tau out. All my tau coming in on a single turn and getting their rapid fire abilities is painful for any enemy.

I try and deepstrike all my suits due to the marker beacon on my pathfinder's Devilfish. It allows me to re-roll the scatter, so I get a little bolder with my units coming in closer to the enemy.

As far as the fish of fury, some people still take part in it, but it is not as great as its former glory.
It was a common tactic in 4th edition with 2 devilfish and 2 squads of 12 firewarriors. The idea was that you drive up close to an enemy and make a V formation in front of squad of anything. you would have the bottom of the V facing the enemy and have your devilfish exactly 2.5 inches away. This would prevent the enemy from coming in between the DF due to them having to be an inch away from an enemy model. All 24 FW would get their shots (48 of them). and if anything lived, they would either have to attack the devilfish, or go around for enemies could not shoot underneath the devilish at the time. Some people still use this idea, but it is not as effective due to the enemy getting cover saves as well as the FW can still be shot at. Also, due to objectives, the effectiveness of a 12 man FW team is A LOT less due to the extra 60 points that can field a whole other team of FW.

There is a lot better description of the maneuver on AdvancedTauTactica.com



Here's to the primarily Xeno players out there,
Cheers,
Waffles

jazzpaintball wrote:Now I would always Like some criticism in the list, but I will always put my opinions out there. It is not that I am fighting anyone, but I would like a bit more of an esplanation on why to field A instead of B than A is better than B, so put more A in.

Of course. Unlike most people here, and like you, I always like to put forth an opinion and back them up with explanations. Don't worry about that.

jazzpaintball wrote:Just to let you know, I am also a kroot player, but I just like larger forces with lots of hounds for the first strike due to initiative and usually outflank them.

The MAIN role of kroots are really as a bubble shield/wrap, to tarpit incoming assaults. Inititiative or not, you WANT them to fall in a SINGLE turn.

jazzpaintball wrote:The bottom line of your comment does bother me since I have placed 3rd and 4th in my last two tourneys with lists close to this. Why don't you think that this will put up a fight? What would change that? Please let me know this instead of "your list sucks."

First of all, no offense ok? I read your batrep (think you already know that). Your opponents are absolutely not competitive at all.

Ok, for a start, let us do a litmus test on your list.

Can your list handle SW las/plas & ML LongFangs spam? 15 missiles, 4-6 Lasc. Do you think your Comm can survive even a turn against that?

Another litmus test. How do you intend to play against Nob biker list or Ork BW spam list?

jazzpaintball wrote:All my tau coming in on a single turn and getting their rapid fire abilities is painful for any enemy.

How are you getting all of your units to come in on the same turn? If you are using your PosR to delay deployment until turn 4/5, I suppose this could work alright in a KP game. However, if your opponent kills your HQ (which isn't hard to fathom given he is just about the only thing on the table), you lose the bonus/effect of the PosR.

Plus, in order to get the deep strike reroll from the Pathfinder Devilfish, it needs to be on the table. And with only your HQ + Broadsides + Devilfish on the table, I don't see how it would still be on the table after turn 3.

What two units are you going to sacrifice? Firewarriors? Devilfish? Suits?


This list can work against some matchups, but against an opponent who has had any experience with reserve/deepstrike lists, I don't really see this being difficult to handle. Tau just aren't resilient enough to be able to take the shooting/assault that will come after deepstriking. Furthermore, with only 3 troops in the list (that come in on your table edge), I'm not quite sure how you plan on winning objective games.

Ninja Tau have a bad rep because it's a bad list. If you think it's fun, that's great -- keep playing it. But it's not a competitive list unless you are playing against people that don't know what they are doing. In that case, even Vespid are competitive!

So what kind of list do you think is truly competitive? Kroot wall lists? Tank wall Lists? Markerlight overload lists?

Here is what I have for models. Tell me a competitive list that would involve me not having to go and buy an entire new army and I will try it out.

10 crisis suits
3 stealth suits
78 Fire warriors
12 path finders
2 devilfish
1 hammerhead
3 piranha
6 vespid
16 kroot
10 hounds
3 broadsides
2 sniper teams.

Let me know. I am always trying to find a new way to play the tau.

Waffles

IMO you don't have a huge amount of flexibility with Tau in terms of army composition with the current meta. Competitive lists are all about maxing out your Crisis slots and bringing as many railguns as possible. You bring troops and an HQ because you have to. Typically your options are:

Do you bring one Hammerhead? Or Broadsides instead?

Hammerheads have better mobility, but it doesn't take much to at least shake it. Broadsides will reliably put out more firepower than a HH, but even with an A.S.S. will be relatively static. Broadsides are also much more survivable. A Hammerhead costs more than two Broadsides. And two Broadsides put out TWO TL Railgun shots at BS3, which is results in more than double the expected railgun hits for a cheaper unit. If you are expecting mostly vehicle-heavy meta, there is little reason to bring a Hammerhead.

One or two squads of Pathfinders?

At 1500, one squad of 6 is probably fine. At the end of the day, this is an expensive unit that takes points away from suits. The average of 3 markerlight hits are best suited for maxed Broadside teams -- that's 3 TL railgun shots with no coversave, which statistically will usually wreck a Rhino.

How should you kit your crisis units?

This is heavily influenced by what you expect to encounter. Many lists run strictly Fireknives because they are so versatile. They can pop Rhinos pretty reliably, and they also have sufficient firepower to whittle down MEQ. Deathrains will be a more reliable anti-vehicle team, and are much cheaper. Helios suits are difficult to use, but if you are using Broadsides to pop vehicles, then you are bringing them purely for anti-MEQ/TEQ.

Kroot or no Kroot?

This is probably the biggest difference between many Tau lists. Against an assaulty army (especially Drop Pod assaults), kroot walls are incredibly helpful and are well worth the cost. The downside is their limited purpose against a shooty list. The best they can do is outflank in an objective game and hope you end up coming in on the side that you want. They can be a game changer, but they can also be a point sink and an easy KP.



So a decent list with your army might look like this:

You can probably fit another Piranha in there if you want, or a second team of Pathfinders, or some Kroot. And if you get another couple of Broadsides, I'd drop the Hammerhead and run 3 2x units. But the bottom line is every somewhat competitive Tau list is going to look similar to this. Other builds aren't necessarily bad, it's just that they don't function better in the current meta.

The list is doable, and I will try it out. The only thing that I can see right off the bat that may prove to be trouble is it needing another troop choice due to there being so many objective games.

There is a LGS tourney of 1500 points at the end of the month. I should know by then if this is an appropriate list.

Waffles

jazzpaintball wrote:So what kind of list do you think is truly competitive? Kroot wall lists? Tank wall Lists? Markerlight overload lists?

Here is what I have for models. Tell me a competitive list that would involve me not having to go and buy an entire new army and I will try it out.

10 crisis suits
3 stealth suits
78 Fire warriors
12 path finders
2 devilfish
1 hammerhead
3 piranha
6 vespid
16 kroot
10 hounds
3 broadsides
2 sniper teams.

Let me know. I am always trying to find a new way to play the tau.

Waffles

But you haven't tell me how you gonna pass the litmus test.
If you have a way to pass the litmus test, it means your list is doable.


Anyway with what you have, 1500 i would roughly suggest this :-

Missile/Plas Shas El
3x2 Fireknives
3x1 Piranhas
2x6 FireWarriors with Devilfish
2x10-13 kroots
Broadsides
HammerHead (0-1)