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A rather vague title I'll admit but couldnt think of anything better.
My question revolves around why GW has chosen certain Marine armies to be their "poster boys" or "big sellers" over others, considering (specfically) the Horus Heresy and its background.

I'll make a few assumptions, feel free to discuss/refute them:
- Many Marine players would look on the HH story as rather pivotal or inspirational (Siege of Terra etc), especially in more recent years with the BL novels etc. Many of said players would have chosen their Legions based on perhaps a story they read or a piece of fluff they liked.
(I fully take on board many others simply chose their Legion on looks/army style or because of what was recommended etc.)
- GWs marketing/selling decisions do have a history, even back in 2nd ed SWs, BAs, DAs were big sellers and very well promoted over other armies. When GW saw these selling they of course were going to keep them in the limelight and update their ranges, since $s are $s.
- GW have retconned and changed pieces of fluff in the past to suit themselves/take new angles that they thik will sell or engage with people more.

Taking all that into account my question stands that why are Legions such as the Imp Fists, White Scars and BAs (to a much lesser degree) not as prominent as others, considering their role in the Siege of Terra (the main HH event).

Dont get me wrong, I acknowledge fully the Ultramarines had their hands full with the WBs, Space Wolves were sent after Magnus et al and the Dark Angles were quite far away but its something I was pondering.

Is it simply a case of Legions such as SW (werewolves), BAs (Vampires) and DAs (for/against Emperor) having more interesting angles to them than say the Scars/Fists? (being a little facetious with my angles here).

Sorry its a bit of a disjointed post, I hope you can see the gist of it.

The famous chapters were chosen 25 years ago....Long before the HH series and by people who, for the most part, no longer work for GW.

Granted. Next question, why though?

Maybe they were the favorite of the designers and the first thought up, or cause of their colour schemes.

Probably because they (the designers) thought they were cool looking or cool sounding.


Remember back then the company wasn't public. It was just some guys playing wargames with whatever they came up with.

The fluff was radically different and anything, no matter how strange or goofy was included on a whim.


So why was Space Wolves made really special (unique rules, own codex), White Scars a bit special (unique background/organisation) and Imperial Fists not special at all.......? 'Coz they felt like it....that why..

Back then there was no deeper meaning.


...

Steelmage99 wrote:The famous chapters were chosen 25 years ago....Long before the HH series and by people who, for the most part, no longer work for GW.

Well, actually only like 20 years ago with the start of 2nd Edition. But this is the correct answer. In RT there were quite a few different featured chapters, some of which have all but disappeared today (or completely disappeared like the Rainbow Warriors, lol). 2nd Edition consolidated the fluff into a more cohesive storyline and the groundwork of the modern 40K setting was put together. But the modern incarnation of the Horus Heresy is far newer than that. The original story of the Heresy was only nominally fleshed out until the Ultramarines and Chaos codex books came out in 95 & 96 respectively. And even then, it wasn't terribly exhaustive in its details. That all came later. We knew Horus went bad, which of the Legions went to Chaos, Battle of Terra, Sanguinius died, and then the Emperor destroyed Horus but was mortally wounded in the process. GW chose which chapters became the marketed ones before this whole story was really sat down and mapped out.

The why? Good thing for you I just answered this yesterday in another thread.

It's actually very simple.

Back in the early-mid 90s, there were a "Big Four" of in-house Space Marine chapters. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and UItramarines. The Ultramarines were the only one that needed no additional explanation. If you know what a Marine is in real life, then you can imagine one 38000 years in the future and the Ultramarines look kinda like what you'd expect. Big Guys in Big Armor with Big Guns. No need to explain why they have long hair and fangs, no need to explain why they wear hoodie bathrobes, no need to explain why they have fangs and drink blood. GW needed a flagship chapter, and the Ultramarines fit the bill as easily marketable.

Specialization in the model range accounts for more of the rest. So a lot of the decisions were probably marketing as well. If they never sold a lot of bikes, they'd assume that promoting the White Scars was a waste of time. They tried, at times in the past, to push the White Scars through White Dwarf articles, etc. But those efforts probably didn't see any marked increases in bike sales. As far as the Blood Angels not being prominent, I'm not sure I see where you're coming from. The Blood Angels have a ton of unique models; possibly only second to the Space Wolves.

I also think there is a case of having to draw the line somewhere before you have a cluttered book shelf.

White Scars are an awesome concept, and you can thank Paul Sawyers enthusiasm for them, that we actually got to see any models. But, what marks them any different to Space Wolves, guys with fur pelts and cloaks, maybe riding on bikes a lot more.
If you want White Scars, folks can use Wolves as a basis.

Imperial Fists, aren't going to be a lot different to Ultramarines, maybe some more seige themed Dreads and the like, but are basically yellow Marines. Crimson Fists are the same.

There is some sort of Irony that what many consider more famous chapters have been super seeded by one of the later founding of their Blood line, aka the Black Templars. However they get away with being their own book as they are unique in their crusader aspect.

Do I think perhaps they should have used one of the more famous Rogue Trader chapters for that 'crusader' Chapter? Maybe like the Flesh Tearers, or even the Crimson Fists, well yeah, but we have the Templars, and thats not going to change.

Dark Angels and Blood Angels get away with it as well for just being different enough to warrant their own books.

After that, no matter how much we individually like other chapters, or footnotes in Marine History, they are all too easily themed with one of these five.


I do think there is only one Chapter of Imperial Marines left distinct enough to warrant their own book, and that would be the Iron Hands.

Part of me would hope if they ever decided to do an Adepticus Mechanicus army, they would meld it with the Iron Hands, and treat it like the old Witch Hunters book, so you could either have an seperate Mechanicus force, Iron Hands force or mix of the two.
That to me makes a Adepticus Mechanicus book viable and interesting choice for a new 40K army.

I largely agree with Morathi. The current big chapters each represent a unique design aesthetic, and most other chapters can be easily rolled into them.

Why they in particular were chosen over others? Because those were the chapters the designers at the time liked, and were often the armies they themselves used.

There isn't any fancy reasoning behind it. They were unique, they liked them, so they produced them.

Aye thats the other thing, each of them where championed by someone at the studio at one time or another.

Hell, I didn't say in my post above, but I have a nagging feeling/memory that aren't the Templars one of the Studio staffs own army, given rise to codex-hood?

Ratius wrote:My question revolves around why GW has chosen certain Marine armies to be their "poster boys" or "big sellers" over others, considering (specfically) the Horus Heresy and its background.

Well, the main legions featured in the Heresy Series tend to be the Traitor ones, because the most interesting thing seems to be the contrast between what those legions were like BEFORE the Heresy, and what we know them to be now.

The Imperial Fists have actually probably been one of the most featured Loyalists, since they appear in so many of the novels, whereas many of the Loyalists have been the main characters only in their specific book (Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Ultramarines). Dark Angels are, so far, the only loyalists to have had two books.

I guess the story of how the Heresy came to be is the underlying thread so far, which is why mostly the Traitors have been focused. We're slowly seeing the shift towards the Loyalist legions as the series progresses, and as they become the protagonists in the Heresy itself...

In the case of Ultramarines, it's because we often associate blue with "good guys" in gaming and fiction. It's a soothing, friendly color, and it looks regal when paired with gold.

Black Legion is just a case of "bad guys wear black hats" like you'd see in any old western. Bad guys usually wear black, simple as that.

Ratius wrote:Granted. Next question, why though?

Because the guys writing it happened to have a personal preference for them and they were in a position basically to do what they wanted and write what they felt like.

It's worth remembering that the Dark Angels are in fact upstarts; back in the early days the "big four" were the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Salamanders. What the rationale was for that change, however, I do not know.

When were Salamanders ever part of the "big four?" Codex: Angels of Death was BA and DA. Salamanders are bigger now than they ever have been, thanks to Vulkan.

Much earlier than that. See, by way of example, the original 'How to Paint Space Marines". The Dark Angels got promoted to their place c1990, possibly thanks to Bill King's Deathwing story and the eponymous Space Hulk supplement.

Why is anything anything?

Seriously though, who knows? In an alternate universe, alternate you is wondering why GW decided to make the Catachans their poster child.

VarguardObrien wrote:Why is anything anything?

Seriously though, who knows? In an alternate universe, alternate you is wondering why GW decided to make the Catachans their poster child.

You mean in my perfect fantasy world?
<3 planet Rambo

English Assassin wrote:It's worth remembering that the Dark Angels are in fact upstarts; back in the early days the "big four" were the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Salamanders. What the rationale was for that change, however, I do not know.

Sorry English you're going to have to explain this one.

How where Salamanders anything more than the other Chapters that got a piece of art in the Centre of the Rogue Trader book, which the Dark Angels was also a part of. Dark Angels where in Space Hulk in 1990 via the expansion as you noted, the only thing I can think of, is where the Salamanders on the side of the Space Marine box for the Loyalist side in 89? But that was more down to the fact they had room for six chapters either side of the box, and some Chapters had to be left out. However all of them where mentioned inside the background book.

I can't fully remember who was actually on the box, all I remember was the Thousand Sons where red with the black M symbol, pretty Sure World Eaters and Emperors Children where on the Traitor side as well, and I think the good side had Blood Angels, but no idea which other five where picked. If Dark Angels where on that as well, well I can't think of anywhere that the Salamanders where more used.

So how and when did the Salamanders get a bigger profile?

Tbh I don't remember much about Salamanders, RavenGuard or the Ironhands before about 92-93... in Rogue Trader it was Chapters that turned out to be Second founding ones like Flesh Tearers and Crimson Fists standing alongside the big ones.


edit -

Heres the pic.



This is the thing I forget, which it seems others do as well.. they Dark Angels on the Space Marine box where not black because they where Ravenwing, they where black, because in Rogue Trader, the Chapter was. Same as Thousand Sons where red with the black M.

Salamanders where not even in the famous Rogue Trader pic it seems.

English Assassin wrote:It's worth remembering that the Dark Angels are in fact upstarts; back in the early days the "big four" were the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Salamanders. What the rationale was for that change, however, I do not know.

O_o Confused as to where this impression comes from.

The Big Four, as I described them, were the principal chapters who got Codex Books in 2nd Edition. Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Ultramarines, and Codex: Angels of Death (Dark & Blood Angels). Like it's been mentioned, the Dark Angels were also in some of the earliest editions of Space Hulk. The only early references to the Salamanders was a camo scheme in the 40K Compendium, and maybe a few bit pieces here and there. 2nd Edition is the real turning point for 40K. That was where they took all the loose ideas and fluff from Rogue Trader and Space Marine(Epic). Before that, the idea of the First Founding didn't even really exist. Salamanders definitely weren't even in RT. The only Space Marines mentioned by name in the original Rogue Trader book were the ones displayed in that picture above. Ahh, the Rainbow Warriors. If you ever needed an example of how tongue in cheek RT was at times, you only have to look at them.

Aye, also pretty sure Dark Angels where referenced in the Compedium vehicle colour schemes as a Land Raider I think, as well.

edit - aye here it is.




Dang I want a 'Spiders' army for the Guard.

And as soon as the whole "legion" thing was invented, the Dark Angels became the First Legion and the Emperor's personal one.

English Assassin wrote:Much earlier than that. See, by way of example, the original 'How to Paint Space Marines". The Dark Angels got promoted to their place c1990, possibly thanks to Bill King's Deathwing story and the eponymous Space Hulk supplement.

Indeed.

the colour we know today as Dark Angels Green used to be called Salamander Green.....and all Dark Angels were black, not just Ravenwing.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

English Assassin wrote:It's worth remembering that the Dark Angels are in fact upstarts; back in the early days the "big four" were the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Salamanders. What the rationale was for that change, however, I do not know.

O_o Confused as to where this impression comes from.

The Big Four, as I described them, were the principal chapters who got Codex Books in 2nd Edition. Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Ultramarines, and Codex: Angels of Death (Dark & Blood Angels). Like it's been mentioned, the Dark Angels were also in some of the earliest editions of Space Hulk.

...and as I have already pointed out, the Dark Angels' "promotion" to prominence pre-dated that by several years. By way of example, here are a few pages from around 1989, the Dark Angels are conspicuously absent from them.

Thats kinda ignoring the Dark Angels being in Rogue Trader, and the Salamanders not being there.

Also Deathwing came out the following year, so not several years either, that was the first step in the colour change for Dark Angels, when Deathwing went white/cream. Don't forget that the Dark Angels had already appeared in at least two publications by then. The only real question is why did the Dark Angels go from Black to Green, I would guess due to the Raven Guard and Black Legion, they didn't want three Black coloured Chapters from the original group, although that hardly stopped them with red ones, so who knows.

As you said..

English Assassin wrote:It's worth remembering that the Dark Angels are in fact upstarts; back in the early days the "big four" were the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Salamanders. What the rationale was for that change, however, I do not know.

Its really not a case of upstarts, Dark Angels where already in the game and around with a colour scheme before Salamanders, thats 100% fact.

All that happened here is someone was painting Salamanders in the studio and they got put in that booklet. Why Dark Angels where not I don't know. I can't remember exactly but I think there where only a few chapters in that thing anyways, so it was hardly a bible for the Marine colour schemes. We also know GW are not releasing things two weeks after they create them, so perhaps Deathwing had been on the table for a while by then and the ideas of changing their colour was already on the cards. To be fair that is mostly speculation about the painting in the studio but it would make sense.

Anyways, those are answers we will never know, all that I can say is Dark Angels are by no means upstarts, they have always had a place in the 40K books, that predates the Salamanders, if we are getting hung up over a colour change, well thats an odd one, but that doesn't make them upstarts either. It just means for some odd reason they got changed to Green. If not for the reason I gave above, then my guess is Cream wasn't working as well with the Black, but once again thats just speculation.

I hardly would say that a Dark Angels colour change makes Salamanders big four though, in fact I'd personally not consider there to be a big four until after the seperate codexes arrived in 2nd. Before then there where the Original twelve from Rogue Trader, and those that followed.

We are talking about a era of GW where this was considered the norm.



(By that I mean random paint jobs, with no real given Chapter or place)

So Salamanders where in the booklet, Dark Angels where in Rogue Trader, the compendium, had their own expansion for Space Hulk and where the cover choice for Space marine, all with in a year of that booklet. I am still failing to see this upstarts thing.