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I'm pretty effective at using massed veteran plasmas to wipe out enemy marines with FNP, but I can't see how blobs could pull this off. Even at perfect conditions with FRFSRF they'd get 45 hits, 15 wounds, 2.5 dead. Compare this to the damage output of two veteran squads (equivilent points) gives 12 shots, 8 hits, 6.6 wounds, 3.3 dead with cover save, 4.6 with re-rolled cover save orders.
CC is a little different though, assuming the enemy charges the blob can lose 15-20 men and still dish out some pain, 3 sarges and commissar gives 12 PW attacks, 6 hit, 2 dead. This will also prevent you from using firepower to take down the enemy assaulters, you'll be locked in combat with them. If they're expensive/elite this is a good thing, but against more "common" assault units it means a 100 point unit is bogging down 250 points of blob.
Seems like taking out enemy MEQs is much, much easier with MSU plasma veterans.

I hardly ever use FRFSRF against MEQ. It's a waste.

There are a couple of ways to make your blobs infinitely better:

Minostorum Priests are a dirt cheap chaplain and make your blobs much more combat capable.

Consider taking either Straken or CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED. Either, with proper positioning can give the unit furious charge, and I think Straken gives the unit counter attack? I can't remember, I usually don't take him.

To me, blobs serve as more of a tarpit unit than an actual assault unit. Can they do well in an assault while throwing bodies? Sure, but they also do very well in terms of things like tying up dreadnoughts without CCWs (I'm looking at you psyfleman,) or, and I'm not sure about this, I think you can give either sergeants or commissars meltabombs while you're holding them down.

Veterans are good at taking down MEQ, sure, but you have to take a couple of things into consideration:

Outside of a chimera, they're generally screwed. Cover saves only go so far and wasting a Lord Commissar with a camo cloak or taking forward sentries or whatever doctrine gives you camo cloaks is generally a waste. When the chimera goes boom, you're also doomed to lose a few models as well.

If you gets hot with your plasma guns, you just lost a 22 point model 67% of the time.

Veterans also break pretty easily and get shadowed off the board.

So, both have their benefits with the right build. I wouldn't say one is any better than the other, it's just about proper execution.

So, power blobs CAN take down FNP, but it is a little situational. Most of the damage a power blob does is from its power weapons which already ignore FNP, but FNP does basically stop the unit from taking errant wounds from regular bayonets. In most circumstances, that's no big deal, but on units that have a LOT of CC killing power put over just a few units that have FNP, the FNP is the difference between the power blob winning like it usually does, and the power blob losing horribly. Thankfully, the only example I can think of off the top of my head is death company with the priest, but I know there are others out there. In those cases, you need more FNP-ignoring stuff in the shooting phase, whether it's giving the blob itself better guns, or whether it's making sure that their support units also ignore FNP.

... or take rough riders...

They can, but it'd take quite a while. I certainly wouldn't want to try... best to use your other, heavy hitters for those.

odorofdeath wrote:They can, but it'd take quite a while. I certainly wouldn't want to try... best to use your other, heavy hitters for those.

I'd imagine this is what you would have your Leman Russ's or other heavy artillery firing at, since a good blob should be able to handle just about anything else. You'd essentially try to keep them away from the FnP unit while the rest of your army bombards them into submission.

Wouldn't a priest with an eviscerator help in a situation like this as well?

MrMoustaffa wrote:I'd imagine this is what you would have your Leman Russ's or other heavy artillery firing at, since a good blob should be able to handle just about anything else. You'd essentially try to keep them away from the FnP unit while the rest of your army bombards them into submission.

Wouldn't a priest with an eviscerator help in a situation like this as well?

A priest with an eviscerator is 60 points (I think?) of "Stab Me First," as a 1W IC who strikes at I1 with only a 4+ Invuln to protect him. Totally not worth it based on his combat capabilities, you want to string him out at the rear of the blob so he can survive the first round of combat.

Roboute wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:I'd imagine this is what you would have your Leman Russ's or other heavy artillery firing at, since a good blob should be able to handle just about anything else. You'd essentially try to keep them away from the FnP unit while the rest of your army bombards them into submission.

Wouldn't a priest with an eviscerator help in a situation like this as well?

A priest with an eviscerator is 60 points (I think?) of "Stab Me First," as a 1W IC who strikes at I1 with only a 4+ Invuln to protect him. Totally not worth it based on his combat capabilities, you want to string him out at the rear of the blob so he can survive the first round of combat.

True, I was kind of just asking if he'd help tear through the FnP more than anything. I haven't used him much so that's why I was asking.

bforber wrote:I hardly ever use FRFSRF against MEQ. It's a waste.

There are a couple of ways to make your blobs infinitely better:

Minostorum Priests are a dirt cheap chaplain and make your blobs much more combat capable.

Consider taking either Straken or CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED. Either, with proper positioning can give the unit furious charge, and I think Straken gives the unit counter attack? I can't remember, I usually don't take him.

To me, blobs serve as more of a tarpit unit than an actual assault unit. Can they do well in an assault while throwing bodies? Sure, but they also do very well in terms of things like tying up dreadnoughts without CCWs (I'm looking at you psyfleman,) or, and I'm not sure about this, I think you can give either sergeants or commissars meltabombs while you're holding them down.

Veterans are good at taking down MEQ, sure, but you have to take a couple of things into consideration:

Outside of a chimera, they're generally screwed. Cover saves only go so far and wasting a Lord Commissar with a camo cloak or taking forward sentries or whatever doctrine gives you camo cloaks is generally a waste. When the chimera goes boom, you're also doomed to lose a few models as well.

If you gets hot with your plasma guns, you just lost a 22 point model 67% of the time.

Veterans also break pretty easily and get shadowed off the board.

So, both have their benefits with the right build. I wouldn't say one is any better than the other, it's just about proper execution.

You've touched on what may well be the crux of my strategic miss-management-how do I reliably kill MEQs without plasma vets? Executioners are kind of expensive, and filling up on heavy slots of them would leave me stranded against AV14.
Would prefer straken over creed since it's rare that power blobs will get the charge so counter-attack is your friend.
Regarding priests, they are 50 points with eviserators and (IIRC) They have 2 wounds. But yeah they're still not really taking, except without the eviserator for a cheap one-off bonus to assault.

Blobs serve a purpose and its not solely to take out MEq, but keep them from getting to your better stuff, like the afore mentioned vets with plasma or whatever else you may have..

Basically units should be taken in context of the whole not just what they do in one on one situations.

Joey wrote:Regarding priests, they are 50 points with eviserators and (IIRC) They have 2 wounds.

60 and 1 actually.

I'm going to try them out for a while, picking up some Repentia models for them. I am slightly worried about them surviving but have learned a bit more about ICs in CC recently, and how to get only one enemy attacking them back. The chances of them surviving the 2 attacks that a single MEQ can give them is not to bad, with their 4++. However, I would love to know if their special rule still works if they are dead by the initiative step you want to use their rerolls at. I have heard it both ways.

Don't forget that with the new FAQ you can literally outflank the entire platoon.

PCS comes out with plasma/melta, blob cleans up the rest and pushes toward an objective if need be.

Trickstick wrote:

Joey wrote:Regarding priests, they are 50 points with eviserators and (IIRC) They have 2 wounds.

60 and 1 actually.

I'm going to try them out for a while, picking up some Repentia models for them. I am slightly worried about them surviving but have learned a bit more about ICs in CC recently, and how to get only one enemy attacking them back. The chances of them surviving the 2 attacks that a single MEQ can give them is not to bad, with their 4++. However, I would love to know if their special rule still works if they are dead by the initiative step you want to use their rerolls at. I have heard it both ways.

I thought they were 35 by default +15 or the weapon, must be my bad. Dying in the first round isn't that much of an issue, in a blob it's easy to position him in a way that means he can't get into base contact in the first turn of assault. And by the second turn it's a slogfest anyway.

winterman wrote:Blobs serve a purpose and its not solely to take out MEq, but keep them from getting to your better stuff, like the afore mentioned vets with plasma or whatever else you may have..

Basically units should be taken in context of the whole not just what they do in one on one situations.

If I replace vets with blobs, that means my vehicles have to move from anti-vehicle to anti-MEQ (without forcing enemies to re-roll their cover saves like veterans can) and leaving me strapped for anything that can take out AV14, perhaps maybe melta bombs on sargents but a)that relies on a blob being free to assault it and b) probably 6s to hit.
I can't really see what else blobs provide for this shuffling around of my army...sure it's difficult to shift them from an objective, but their actual killy power is lacklustre for such an expensive unit.


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bforber wrote:Don't forget that with the new FAQ you can literally outflank the entire platoon.

PCS comes out with plasma/melta, blob cleans up the rest and pushes toward an objective if need be.

What? I assume you mean Al'Rahem...right?

Joey wrote:
You've touched on what may well be the crux of my strategic miss-management-how do I reliably kill MEQs without plasma vets? Executioners are kind of expensive, and filling up on heavy slots of them would leave me stranded against AV14.

Just take normal Leman Russ Tanks. They ignore FNP on T4 models anyway.

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bforber wrote:Don't forget that with the new FAQ you can literally outflank the entire platoon.

PCS comes out with plasma/melta, blob cleans up the rest and pushes toward an objective if need be.

What? I assume you mean Al'Rahem...right?

Either that or Tactical Genius, yes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:
You've touched on what may well be the crux of my strategic miss-management-how do I reliably kill MEQs without plasma vets? Executioners are kind of expensive, and filling up on heavy slots of them would leave me stranded against AV14.

Just take normal Leman Russ Tanks. They ignore FNP on T4 models anyway.

So do Executioners. Though I suppose 3*LRBT saves you 120 points on the Executioners. Hmm.

bforber wrote:

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bforber wrote:Don't forget that with the new FAQ you can literally outflank the entire platoon.

PCS comes out with plasma/melta, blob cleans up the rest and pushes toward an objective if need be.

What? I assume you mean Al'Rahem...right?

Either that or Tactical Genius, yes.

Indeed. Though Creed isn't much use below 2,000 points, even though I do have the model and would love to use him. Al'Rahem is a cheaper and more effective way of ouflanking IMO.

Your standard Leman is going to dual purpose a little better in terms of taking out light transports and things like death company and assault marines with a priest.

If im doing a foot list creed is amazing at 2000 or less. 4 orders at 24inch range, yes please. Oh i can make my leman russ outflank... Interesting. Orders are king for foot guard. And creed is the king of orders

We are either talking about 5 man command squads/honour guard which are great but for their points are badly suited vs. the blob.

Or Priest with Blood angel marines. In this case force the cc rules in terms of movement, this should mean base to base contact with priest is made pretty soon after the first round if not straight away. Target the priest, then the FNP disappears and you gain a kill point.

EDITeath company will just kill you. I can not think of any other examples right now, You'll probably do all right against deathwing if they take mostly TH/SS-lack of attacks especially if you can charge and get the first hits in.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:If im doing a foot list creed is amazing at 2000 or less. 4 orders at 24inch range, yes please. Oh i can make my leman russ outflank... Interesting. Orders are king for foot guard. And creed is the king of orders

I do like orders, but they're even better on veterans. I can't think of another (relatively) cheap troop unit equipped with AP2 rapid fire weapons that can make the enemy re-roll their cover saves. Speaking personally I'd rather outflank 2 Hydras than a Leman Russ, that's the kind of firepower you want on the table from turn 1.

As was briefly mentioned before, this is NOT a place for a priest. With WS3, T3, and W1, a priest doesn't survive long against targets that either can't strike back, or have only a really low number of attacks (like wraithlord and dreads). Against chainswords, priests will practically always get killed before they get a chance to swing.

bforber wrote: There are a couple of ways to make your blobs infinitely better........Consider taking either Straken or CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED. Either, with proper positioning can give the unit furious charge, and I think Straken gives the unit counter attack? ...

To me, blobs serve as more of a tarpit unit than an actual assault unit...
Veterans are good at taking down MEQ, sure, but you have to take a couple of things into consideration:....Outside of a chimera, they're generally screwed.

If you gets hot with your plasma guns, you just lost a 22 point model 67% of the time.

Veterans also break pretty easily and get shadowed off the board.

So, both have their benefits with the right build. I wouldn't say one is any better than the other, it's just about proper execution.

THIS.

Straken is essential to my tactics in my blob/meltavet hybrid list as it just gives the blob that much extra staying power with counter-attack. It has survived and killed terminator squads in CC on a couple of occasions.








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Joey wrote:CC is a little different though, assuming the enemy charges the blob can lose 15-20 men and still dish out some pain, 3 sarges and commissar gives 12 PW attacks, 6 hit, 2 dead. This will also prevent you from using firepower to take down the enemy assaulters, you'll be locked in combat with them. If they're expensive/elite this is a good thing, but against more "common" assault units it means a 100 point unit is bogging down 250 points of blob.

This is why you run Hydras/Griffons that can still provide that long range anti-infantry for cheap if a blob gets locked-out in CC, and it's also why I run two chimera with melta or plasma that can deliver a punch down the flanks.

I guess it depends on what role you want the blob to take. I personally use my blob as more of a distraction with autocannons and power weapons it can harass units at long-range first couple of turns and yet with power weapons and Straken nearby for counter-attack and furious charge plus a commissar (or Lord Commissar shielded at the rear) it's also mean against MEQ in assualt and it's very hard to break it with ld9 or 10 with stubborn.
A lot of players get so distracted by it they forget that the chimera vets are sneaking up doing damage. Even if they deep strike near the blob in the hope of locking out those autocannons and lasguns in CC I still have artillery or Hydras at the back to compensate. If my Chimera melta vets fail to take out any high AV targets I always have a lascannon HWS lurking at the back.
In this role I guess I use the blob as more as a tarpit. All I can say is in the past dozen games against MEQ it's been very successful. Usually only a few termies or assualt marines manage to get to the blob and then after 2 turns in CC with the power weapons they've been finished. Sometimes they never even get to the blob as I charge Straken or my PCS with flamers (counter-assault roles).

So yeah I wouldn't write off blobs against MEQ completely.

With leman russ tanks of multiple varieties, bassys, medusae, plasma available on every second platform etc, you don't need your blobs to kill MEQ with FNP.
As someone who plays with FNP MEQ, what the blob stops is said MEQ from 1) charging straight into the shooting units thats killing them and B) provides a sticky speedbump that will take forever to chew through, if you do manage to do so, and the power weapons are not cool either.

When you're shooting kills FNP MEQ like they were grots, the blob's role is more of a buckler- a shield with a sharp spike on the front for stabby stabby action.

Jihallah wrote:With leman russ tanks of multiple varieties, bassys, medusae, plasma available on every second platform etc, you don't need your blobs to kill MEQ with FNP.
As someone who plays with FNP MEQ, what the blob stops is said MEQ from 1) charging straight into the shooting units thats killing them and B) provides a sticky speedbump that will take forever to chew through, if you do manage to do so, and the power weapons are not cool either.

When you're shooting kills FNP MEQ like they were grots, the blob's role is more of a buckler- a shield with a sharp spike on the front for stabby stabby action.

Yeah but compared to veterans with plasma guns they're pretty rubbish. Vets can also tie up charging MEQ, as well as shooting plasma guns that make the enemy re-roll cover saves. I have no shortage of things that can kill MEQ, it's just I usually stick to plasma vets for their ability to lay down devestating firepower on MEQ, as well as threaten light armour (twin-linked plasma guns at 24" vs a rhino/razorback).

Joey wrote:

Jihallah wrote:With leman russ tanks of multiple varieties, bassys, medusae, plasma available on every second platform etc, you don't need your blobs to kill MEQ with FNP.
As someone who plays with FNP MEQ, what the blob stops is said MEQ from 1) charging straight into the shooting units thats killing them and B) provides a sticky speedbump that will take forever to chew through, if you do manage to do so, and the power weapons are not cool either.

When your shooting kills FNP MEQ like they were grots, the blob's role is more of a buckler- a shield with a sharp spike on the front for stabby stabby action.

Yeah but compared to veterans with plasma guns they're pretty rubbish.

? I think you have missed what I'm saying. The blob is the shield, the vets/leman russ/whatever are the sword. You use the shield to stop them from sticking you whilst you stick them with your sword.

The blob is not as effective against FNP MEQ as other commonplace guard units, the role the play is keeping those enemies away from your units that are killing them. If you need to the blob can always contribute shooting (depending on loadout), and tie up the marines for awhile with their large number of bodies, stubborn, and even kill some enemies via attrition and the ever useful flurry of s3 power weapon attacks.

Joey wrote:Vets can also tie up charging MEQ

For an assault phase or two. The blob will tie them down for 2x longer as a minimum (as a MEQ hitting a GEQ in CC is the same for vets and platoons, but the blob is a minimum of 20 men so double the size a of a vet squad, and thats minimum), and also do more damage as your blob sarges will probably (should) have P.weaps, but your vet sarge is less likely to receive such equipment. This is my point- the blob keeps the marines at arms length to let the vets/russ/whatever actually do the heavy lifting. Or, as I put it the first time- When your shooting kills FNP MEQ like they were grots, the blob's role is more of a buckler- a shield with a sharp spike on the front for stabby action.

Yes you are talking about 'Hammer and Anvil' guard tactics (except you use the term 'shield and sword', which probably better describes it tbh), which is what I tried to explain previously.

Basically Joey there are other ways of dealing with MEQ other than using plasma and melta vets. Just because you don't seem to understand or you haven't tried anything different doesn't mean they are "plain rubbish". Sorry but I don't get why you bothered starting this thread if you are just going to disregard people's alternatives and are so obviously in love with your own plasma/melta vet strategy (which is the most unoriginal strategy used in all fairness).

Jihallah wrote:When you're shooting kills FNP MEQ like they were grots, the blob's role is more of a buckler- a shield with a sharp spike on the front for stabby stabby action.

Right.

CAN blobs handle FNP? That's a qualified yes.

SHOULD blobs handle FNP? Well...

FifteenHours wrote:Yes you are talking about 'Hammer and Anvil' guard tactics (except you use the term 'shield and sword', which probably better describes it tbh), which is what I tried to explain previously.

I don't agree with Hammer and Anvil. Plague marines and bezerkers- that is a hammer and anvil. The blob is used more to ward them off and block them. The hammer and anvil applies more to melee, since you hold the metal against the anvil and keep it place to smash it with the hammer, the shield keeps the enemies sword away whilst you poke the enemy with your sword

As I said, shield and sword better describes it. ;-)