Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sounds pretty cool actually.

please explain, I have not got the book yet. John jummped out the Cabal's airlock why did they bring him back, again.

It would seem that

infinite_array wrote:It would seem that

Spoiler:

Ollanius and Grammaticus are the HH novels' rewriting of the 'Sensei'. At least, that's how I see it.

Yup. That's what I was thinking. At least we now know why he's called Ollanius 'Pious'...

Since he's been around for 44 THOUSAND years by that time, meaning he was born in around 11000BC, there seems two options here.

1. THE SENSEI ARE BACK! Ollanius is one, since it's implied that he simply cannot die, rather than being 'brought back' by the Cabal. John probably isn't one, since he's so much younger. However, they've both worked for the Cabal at some point.

2. Ollanius is just a very early Cabal agent - yes, they've been fiddling with human affairs for that long...

The lure about Ollanius Pius was he was a normal guy who did something great.

Now everything sucks.

CuddlySquig wrote:The lure about Ollanius Pius was he was a normal guy who did something great.

Now everything sucks.

I agree completely. Especially as an Imperial Guard player who has only known guardsmen to be insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Not to mention the all the guardsmen who have given their lives trying to replicate the saint's heroic sacrifice. That has a more alluring draw to it than some secret agent.

I'm sorry, but what exactly did Ollanius Pious do?

Attacked Horus on his own, after fighting through the battle-barge on his own after Horus has defeated the Emperor. No real contest, but seeing him die gave the Emperor the emotional strength he needed to smite Horus.

Hrmpf, is anyone suprised? Everything had to become more and more "awesome". The Emprah mutated from a very powerful but still somewhat vulnerable psyker ( almost got strangled on Ulanor ) to a living god. The primarchs are almost invulnerable demigods who dominate entire battles on their own.
Even the fricking Thunderwarriors, once merely described as proto astartes, are now much stronger and more powerful than the astartes who replaced them.

CuddlySquig wrote:The lure about Ollanius Pius was he was a normal guy who did something great.

Now everything sucks.

I did wonder what they were going to do with Pius and now I'm more than a little 'Hrmm' about it. At least with 40k we can choose to accept or reject that put forward by GW, BL & so on.

He was a Guardsmen, he ended up where he shouldn't have been, in the wrong (or right) place at the wrong (or right) time just as the Emperor was struck down by Horus. Seeing his Emperor in mortal danger Ollanius placed himself in front of Horus and blocked the Warlords path. Now imagine how awesome that is. A regular Imperial Guardsman who should not have been there, just a man in his standard issue armour, clutching his lasgun, seeing his Emperor being beaten down by the big renegade Warlord. He could have just watched, he could have thought "Well, best side with the winners" but no, he stood in front of the Primarch and held his ground. Yes he was pulped into mush seconds later but it gave the Emperor the resolve he needed to strike down his favoured Son. It's a wonderful metaphore, as I've said before, of humanity protecting the Emperor when he most needed it as the Emperor would have protected humanity.

Having Pius as a special agent type of thing? They missed the point of Pius completely.

/rant over

You know what?

I like this way. The Cabal and its agents are all about manipulation. The Imperium is the big human flavored meatshield that keeps the majority of alien threats aimed towards it, protecting the various small enclaves which feasibly the Cabal consists of(one most certainly being the Eldar) without knowing it.

What better way to ensure that humanity's forces in the future consists of zealous fighters than to give them a patron saint in the form who "stands up" to a freakin' demigod?

I'm kind of with Kanluwen here, additionally the story of Pius never really sat well with what we know of the Emperor anyway. This is a guy who launched a Crusade to reunite humanity by committing genocide against everything that wouldn't join, he let his own sons be cast into the warp because he decided it would fit his plan. He caused millions of otherwise perfectly good people to die because they would not give up their beliefs

Under some theories, he manipulated all parties into causing the Heresy specifically so he can become a god in truth.

The point being, does this really sound like someone who gives a damn if a single guardsman dies in front of him?

Since they're de-mythifying the Horus HEresy, they need to intorduce new 'mysteries' and angles to keep speculation alive. And it's not like the old fluff would neccesarily be sustainable in modern times without being changed anyhow.

I mean, if we're actually going to see Pius on Horus' starship at some point at the end of the series, he's going to need something special about him to keep him from going insane (assuming he is special beyond reincarnating. Any power he does have seems to be passive, subtle, or involuntary.) I'm not sure 'FAITH IN THE EMPEROR' is going to cover that.

I actually like it for bringing alot of the old 'Realms of Chaos' stuff to the fore in a way that fits with the scope of where they are going with the Heresy, and it opens up more discussions about the nature of the warp and the way people interact with it.

I think I prefer the "Normal Guy" type hero. Maybe he was a blank or something, and that protected him.

If I were the Emperor, and this happened, I'd feel a bit upstaged. If a guardsman can have the guts to fight Horus, I certainly should.

Panopticon wrote:
Under some theories, he manipulated all parties into causing the Heresy specifically so he can become a god in truth.

Theories which go against the actual portrayals of the Emperor. If He had orchestrated it, He would not have feared what was coming.

The point being, does this really sound like someone who gives a damn if a single guardsman dies in front of him?

The point was not that the Guardsman died, but the manner in which he died. Horus didn't just kill him, he killed him in a completely unnecessary and horrific fashion (flayed him alive, i think). The Emperor condemned millions to death not because he wanted to, but because He felt that it was necessary to preserve Mankind. Horus did not have to kill the Guardsman in such a agonising manner; he'd lost his former nobility and that act showed that.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I mean, if we're actually going to see Pius on Horus' starship at some point at the end of the series, he's going to need something special about him to keep him from going insane (assuming he is special beyond reincarnating. Any power he does have seems to be passive, subtle, or involuntary.) I'm not sure 'FAITH IN THE EMPEROR' is going to cover that.

I don't see why. Not all Astartes on the Vengeful Spirit went mad, and at the time I'm not sure how beyond normal humans they were in terms of mental treatment. In the Heresy series they seem human enough in how they think. Faith in his religion could well protect Pius' mind; he's presumably seen similar things before in his life anyway.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:I mean, if we're actually going to see Pius on Horus' starship at some point at the end of the series, he's going to need something special about him to keep him from going insane (assuming he is special beyond reincarnating. Any power he does have seems to be passive, subtle, or involuntary.) I'm not sure 'FAITH IN THE EMPEROR' is going to cover that.

I don't see why. Not all Astartes on the Vengeful Spirit went mad, and at the time I'm not sure how beyond normal humans they were in terms of mental treatment. In the Heresy series they seem human enough in how they think. Faith in his religion could well protect Pius' mind; he's presumably seen similar things before in his life anyway.

Actually that Oll "Pious" Pearson is the name that associated with heroic guardsman can be a lure, So as far as human heroics going, until next books we can't know wherever will he die or somebody else will do the Deed and in confusion Oll will vanish with new identity.

And about Grammaticus - i had a feeling that "that all was in his head" i.e. Oll knows John but "dialogue" really was discussion of one, "John" there being just a facade for part of Oll that he tried to put behind.

Wasn't the Pius part already retconned to some Terminator though? This could just be an attempt to re-introduce him into the fluff.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Panopticon wrote:
Under some theories, he manipulated all parties into causing the Heresy specifically so he can become a god in truth.

Theories which go against the actual portrayals of the Emperor. If He had orchestrated it, He would not have feared what was coming.

The point being, does this really sound like someone who gives a damn if a single guardsman dies in front of him?

The point was not that the Guardsman died, but the manner in which he died. Horus didn't just kill him, he killed him in a completely unnecessary and horrific fashion (flayed him alive, i think). The Emperor condemned millions to death not because he wanted to, but because He felt that it was necessary to preserve Mankind. Horus did not have to kill the Guardsman in such a agonising manner; he'd lost his former nobility and that act showed that.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I mean, if we're actually going to see Pius on Horus' starship at some point at the end of the series, he's going to need something special about him to keep him from going insane (assuming he is special beyond reincarnating. Any power he does have seems to be passive, subtle, or involuntary.) I'm not sure 'FAITH IN THE EMPEROR' is going to cover that.

I don't see why. Not all Astartes on the Vengeful Spirit went mad, and at the time I'm not sure how beyond normal humans they were in terms of mental treatment. In the Heresy series they seem human enough in how they think. Faith in his religion could well protect Pius' mind; he's presumably seen similar things before in his life anyway.

But whose word do we have that the Emperor feared it coming? The Emperor? He isn't really a reliable source to me.

By this point Horus has directly or indirectly killed some Primarchs, nearly wiped out a few legions at Istvaan, plunged the Galaxy into the Heresy, and invaded Earth itself. If the Emperor being the (theoretically) smart guy that he is hasn't figured out that Horus is an unpleasant fellow by now, especially on his Chaos tainted warship, then I hardly think murdering a human is going to be the thing that tips him over the edge, no matter how cruel and unusual the murder, I mean Sanguinus is on the floor right there for Emperor's sake.

The original telling of the final showdown between the Emperor and Horus tells of the Emperor's motivation to save humanity and the subconscious block which was preventing him using his full power against Horus (I believe Horus deflected a psychic attack, so he could still use some power.) The problem was that the Emperor hadn't seen him do any of the things and subconsciously didn't believe his son could have done those things. When he saw how cruelly and carelessly (he flayed him alive with a single glance) Horus dealt with the guardsman, the Emperor realised what the Warmaster had become and was able to obliterate him. The fact that the Emperor lost his arms before believing Horus was evil shows how unwilling he was to believe it.

Wow I have missed a lot in the HH series, what the heck is going on here.

So Pius was born in 11k bc, wasn't the emperor born in like 8k bc? Where is it you guys think this is going with the sensei thing, I've always loved the sensei concept but I am completely lost at this point.

Ashryu wrote:Wow I have missed a lot in the HH series, what the heck is going on here.

So Pius was born in 11k bc, wasn't the emperor born in like 8k bc? Where is it you guys think this is going with the sensei thing, I've always loved the sensei concept but I am completely lost at this point.

The Sensei are the Emperor's children - literally. Every so often he gets the ancient god willies and has to jump some poor lass. Next thing you know, you've got another immortal mucking about.

Durza wrote:Wasn't the Pius part already retconned to some Terminator though?

Yup. Because the location of the fight was relocated from the Imperial Palace to Horus' flagship - where it didn't really make sense for the Emperor to bring a company of some ordinary people in cardboard armour along when the space in the teleporter can just as well be occupied by a bunch of Terminators and Space Marines.

At the end of the day, I'm just going to believe that he was the Old pius and leave it at that

I just finished reading KNF and while I enjoyed John G. in Legion, I kinda feel indifferent towards this Oll character. I want to care/like him, but it doesnt sem to click for me. Is there some original work I can read regarding him? Or is he just new for this book? I am however interested in the Sensai and if he is one that would be awesome for BL to be introducing the background fluff for the Big E again. Now what about the Illuminati? /duck

ArbitorIan wrote:
Since he's been around for 44 THOUSAND years by that time, meaning he was born in around 11000BC, there seems two options here.

He copied it from a 20k year older map, not he wrote it the first time.

The Emperor was born in 8000 BC.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

CuddlySquig wrote:The lure about Ollanius Pius was he was a normal guy who did something great.

Now everything sucks.

I did wonder what they were going to do with Pius and now I'm more than a little 'Hrmm' about it. At least with 40k we can choose to accept or reject that put forward by GW, BL & so on.

He was a Guardsmen, he ended up where he shouldn't have been, in the wrong (or right) place at the wrong (or right) time just as the Emperor was struck down by Horus. Seeing his Emperor in mortal danger Ollanius placed himself in front of Horus and blocked the Warlords path. Now imagine how awesome that is. A regular Imperial Guardsman who should not have been there, just a man in his standard issue armour, clutching his lasgun, seeing his Emperor being beaten down by the big renegade Warlord. He could have just watched, he could have thought "Well, best side with the winners" but no, he stood in front of the Primarch and held his ground. Yes he was pulped into mush seconds later but it gave the Emperor the resolve he needed to strike down his favoured Son. It's a wonderful metaphore, as I've said before, of humanity protecting the Emperor when he most needed it as the Emperor would have protected humanity.

Having Pius as a special agent type of thing? They missed the point of Pius completely.

/rant over

Soooo, he's STILL human, he's still in the guard, and he still gets off'd by Horus.

How is this any less awesome? Just because he is super old doesn't mean it's any less impressive.

sfshilo wrote: Soooo, he's STILL human, he's still in the guard, and he still gets off'd by Horus.

How is this any less awesome? Just because he is super old doesn't mean it's any less impressive.

It makes it less impressive by making Ollanius more than human. Normal humans aren't "super old"... For him to be as old as it is implied, he cannot be a normal human. The IG are normal humans (and a few abhumans) and Ollanius was the physical representation of that. He was a normal human, with all the normal human normalities, and he dared to stand in front of a demi-god, knowing full well that a) he would die and b) he would not affect the demi-god in any way whatsoever. He died for a principle. His death forced the Emperor to confront that there was no way to save Horus from himself, so he took the final step and killed him. If Ollanius was some secret immortal or cunning agent planted on the battle barge specifically to sacrifice himself so that the Imperium would be saved and the IG would be invented, then the whole sacrifice is meaningless. "I go to my death, but I will save the universe in the process" is not as awesome as "I know you're going to kill me, but I will HOLD THE LINE!"

Put another way, let's say a Lovecraftian Space Horror is attacking Metropolis, and Superman shows up to fight it. The LSH cannot be stopped, except by death, but Superman absolutely will not kill. Because he's limiting himself in how much strength he will use, Superman gets beaten badly. As he lays on the ground, with the LSH looming over him, someone steps in front of him...

Would it have more meaning if:

A) It's BATMAN! and he's been given a vision from a time-travelling alien that has shown him (Batman) that he must sacrifice his own life here so that Superman will have the strength to do what must be done and save all of Earth. Also, the vision showed that the Batman would become a legacy hero (like the Flash), as many people would take up the mantle of the Batman in the years to come, ensuring that there would always be a Batman to stand at Superman's side...

OR

B) A regular, plain old Metropolis Police Department Officer. He's got a blue uniform on, and an automatic pistol in his hand. He can not, in any way, stop, hinder, or even annoy the Lovecraftian Space Horror. He gets in the LSH's way because, in his mind, he's there to protect people. And right now, Superman needs protecting. The Man of Steel has saved Earth and Humanity enough times that the cop figures the least humanity can do is try to save Superman. He knows he's a dead man when he does it. He does it anyway, because IT SHOULD BE DONE.

One of those versions is the story of Ollanius Pious. One of those versions was written by a hack.

I think that if they're reintroducing him he should be a normal dude for the above reason. Pius was a BAMF because he was a normal guy on Horus' battlebarge and decided "demigod blessed by chaos? that I'm going to fight him."

That said, I would rather have him than not, so mixed feelings.

CuddlySquig wrote:The lure about Ollanius Pius was he was a normal guy who did something great.

Now everything sucks.

Yeah, kinda sucks that they're making him not quite human...