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Because The Perfect Warrior and Mindshackle Scarabs argument was also interesting. linky: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/432139.page

If a C'tan kills a model with Time's Arrow and the killed model is attempting to use Cleansing Flame, what happens? What if that model is the last one in the combat capable of using cleansing flame?

Kitzz wrote:Because The Perfect Warrior and Mindshackle Scarabs argument was also interesting. linky: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/432139.page

If a C'tan kills a model with Time's Arrow and the killed model is attempting to use Cleansing Flame, what happens? What if that model is the last one in the combat capable of using cleansing flame?

I don't see the conflict on this one personally. As before both abilities are resolved at the same time but in this case the effects of the two abilities don't conflict with each other.

So IMHO regardless of whether or not time's arrow kills the model, he is still casting cleansing flame at the same time.

If they are simultaneous, that is true. If they happen in an order, then the cleansing flame happening second would not do anything, as there are no units in assault.

I see the Magic: The Gathering layers system and dependency relationships having relevance if this is the case, as they are an easy system to adopt to resolve the issue (as well as others).

Kitzz wrote:If they are simultaneous, that is true. If they happen in an order, then the cleansing flame happening second would not do anything, as there are no units in assault.

I see the Magic: The Gathering layers system and dependency relationships having relevance if this is the case, as they are an easy system to adopt to resolve the issue (as well as others).

Except 40k doesn't lend itself very well to M:TG layers and dependencies.

Kitzz wrote:If they are simultaneous, that is true. If they happen in an order, then the cleansing flame happening second would not do anything, as there are no units in assault.

Well, both do happen at the same time as the effects are written to occur at the exact same point in time of the game.


The only reason the other example (Mindshackle vs. Perfect Warrior) isn't as simple is because the effects of both those rules seem to conflict, which is why ultimately you'd have to really come up with a workaround of which takes effect first (because there's no other way to do it).

You don't have that issue with this situation, so both effects occur when they're supposed to (at the same time).

Ok, so let's say Castellan Crowe is in combat with a C'tan with Time's Arrow (this is what actually came up, and the reason I assumed the effects were ordered).

My C'tan wants to use Time's Arrow. Crowe would like to use Cleansing Flame. However, because he knows that Time's Arrow may kill him, he opts to wait until my C'tan successfully uses Time's Arrow or not to determine whether he will use Heroic Sacrifice instead of Cleansing Flame.

So to summarize what I think your reading of this situation would be, the GK player would have to declare before Time's Arrow was used that he would attempt to use Cleansing Flame, so that I know he is not reneging?

Essentially - there is no blocking provided by either power (TA, CF) just a desire by the GK player to know the outcome. Given nothing blocks you from processing both simultaneously there is no reason to impose an ordering

This leads to declaration, then roll, because the roll is an independent event from the declaration, but the declaration can be contingent on the roll, so the easiest way to actually perform the "simultaneous" actions is to always require declaration by the GK (et al) player first, then roll the dice

Why is Crowe using Cleansing Flame on a C'tan?

His Rapier Strike still wounds the C'tan on 4+(Because of Rending)


Use Rapier Strike and save your power for Heroic Sacrifice.

Grey Templar wrote:Why is Crowe using Cleansing Flame on a C'tan?

His Rapier Strike still wounds the C'tan on 4+(Because of Rending)


Use Rapier Strike and save your power for Heroic Sacrifice.

Maybe there's like 40 billion other Necrons locked in the same combat.