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Howdy folks. I intend to start gradually collecting another 40k army (I currently play GK Henchmen or Paladins), so I thought a WWP DE list would be fun. C&C please. In particular I would like to know if 2 WWP would be sufficient at this points level, and whether any of the units are too small to ever be effective. I intend to put the Haems with the Venom Wracks and place the WWPs first turn, probably placing them in different table halves (left and right).

HQ:
Baron Sathonyx
Haemonculus, wwp 85
Haemonculus, venom blade, wwp 90

Troops:
10 Hellions, Helliarch, agoniser 185
4 Wracks, Venom 95
4 Wracks, Venom 95
5 Wyches, Hekatrix, agoniser 80
5 Wyches, Hekatrix, agoniser 80

Fast Attack:
6 Reavers, 2 heat lances 156
6 Reavers, 2 heat lances 156
3 Beastmasters, 3 Razorwing Flocks, 6 Khymerae 153

Heavy:
Talos, TL-heat lance 110
Talos, TL-heat lance 110

TOTAL: 1500





Perhaps reduce Hellions to get Venom splinter cannons/Talos chain-flails/Haem liquifiers? I dunno!

1500 is a actually a really difficult level for WWP list. At 1000pts you can only afford one Portal (once you allow for a decent number of scoring units + some hitting power) but at 1500 you really need two so of the extra 500pts you get about 200 goes straight into suicide Portal deployment units.

I wouldn't bother with any kind of upgrades on the Haemonculi, put the 5pts from the Venom Blade somewhere else.

10 Hellions is nowhere near enough, you want 15+ imo. I've actually found that Hellions work better in non WWP lists. Sure the Portal gives them a nice movement boost, but they really need FNP to work effectively and you have no way to do that reliably out of a Portal.

Why spend an extra 10 points on each of the Wrack units? They are going to die heaps and a single extra body won't really help. Extra Cannons on the Venoms are usually nice, but in this list you will rarely get to use them (since they die very early with most things in transports early on). You would be better off taking Nightshields, since it would give you options when you are going second (i.e you won't automatically be screwed against some armies).

5 Wyches really isn't going to do anything, you just don't have the numbers to stick around long enough to do some meaningful damage. The second you are caught outside combat you are going to disappear and unlike Hellions or Beasts you don't have much of a threat range. Remember the Agoniser only averages a single 1 wound per turn against MEQ.

Reavers are ok, but you haven't used any of your Elite slots. 3 x 4 Blasterborn is pretty much the same cost for much better damage output (3 x 3 Trueborn is cheaper for basically the same damage output) and actually has better effective range (6" move + 18" range vs 12" move + 9" effective range). The only thing you lose is the mobility after you arrive, but with two Portals that is rarely an issue.

Beasts are definitely a good unit to bring through a Portal, but that unit is illegal. Each Beastmaster unlocks 2 Razorwings OR 5 Khymerae, so with 3 Masters you could have 4 Razorwings + 5 Khymerae or 2 Razorwings + 10 Khymerae. Essentially you need another Beastmaster to make that unit legal, or you could just swap a Khymerae for a Razorwing.

Talos are solid, ideally you want a third one if possible. I try and give mine a second close combat weapon to give them a slightly more reliable damage output.

Basically you need to rework this quite a bit. You need some staying power in your troops, and you need to pack in as much anti tank firepower as you can. Portal lists are marginally competitive, you need a few things to go your way early on otherwise you get smashed. The biggest problem I found was that with no ranged ability at all you have to do damage (particularly damage to vehicles) the turn you show up or everything falls over.

Thank you for your considered response. Taking that into account, I have made a revised list.

HQ:
Haemonculus, wwp 85
Haemonculus, wwp 85

Troops:
5 Wracks, liquifier, Raider, night shield 130
5 Wracks, liquifier, Raider, night shield 130
10 Wyches, Hekatrix, agoniser 130
10 Wyches, Hekatrix 110

Elite:
3 Trueborn, 3 blasters, Venom, night shield, splinter cannon 156
3 Trueborn, 3 blasters, Venom, night shield, splinter cannon 156

Fast Attack:
3 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwing Flocks, 3 Khymerae 132
6 Reavers, 2 heat lances 156

Heavy:
Talos, TL-heat lance, TL-liquifier 115
Talos, TL-heat lance, TL-liquifier 115

TOTAL: 1500


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This list has no Baron or hellions and a weakened Beastmaster unit and only 1 Reaver squad.

Instead, it has 4 more liquifiers, 6 more anti-vehicle guns, and more durable Wyche units, + more deadly Venoms, more vehicles and better vehicle protection.

Am I correct in thinking the Haem can disembark from his Raider and place the WWP whilst the accompanying Wracks can disembark and shoot their liquifier (ie. the Haem leaves his Wrack unit after the Raider has cruised)?

This is only a suggestion, Night Shields and Venoms are ok. With the closer range weaponry of the blasters, you'll find that night shields will only protect you against a small amount of gak. Those small amount of points could give your Haemies their own liquifier guns.

Also, I'm curious to know your preferences of Heat Lances over Blasters?

I like the idea of losing the Night Shields.

My reasoning with the heat lances rather than the blasters is that for AV12+, the heat lance would penetrate on a 7+ on 2d6, whereas the blaster would penetrate on a 4+, so there is a slight advantage for the heat lance. Now you've made me think about it though, the slight penetration advantage is outweighed by the ability to hit effectively at 18" rather than 9", especially for a force like DE that needs to constantly monitor relative position. Hmmm. For the above list I think I'll stick with heat lances as I don't know where I'd find the extra 6 pts, but I may rework the list in any case depending on feedback.

Thanks!

Any way I could improve things?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Possible list revision to get those Hellions back at the recommended minimum level:

HQ:
Haemonculus, wwp 85
Haemonculus, wwp 85

Troops:
3 Wracks, Venom 85
3 Wracks, Raider 90
10 Wyches, Hekatrix, haywire grenades 130
10 Wyches, Hekatrix 110

Elite:
3 Trueborn, 3 blasters 81
3 Trueborn, 3 blasters, Venom, splinter cannon 146

Fast Attack:
3 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwing Flocks, 3 Khymerae 132
3 Reavers, blaster 81
15 Hellions, Helliarch 250

Heavy:
Talos, TL-heat lance, TL-liquifier gun 115
Talos, TL-heat lance 110

TOTAL: 1500

Any better?

I have little DE exp. so take my suggertions lightly, but am building a WWP list myself. I second the Blasters on range alone as you always have to expect something to go wrong or have to place something where you rather not. As for the Hellions, unless you plan to expand to higher pts., I feel the second list just need tweaking as the Hellions lose out for me without the Baron or Haemon(FNP).

Sethorly wrote:
My reasoning with the heat lances rather than the blasters is that for AV12+, the heat lance would penetrate on a 7+ on 2d6, whereas the blaster would penetrate on a 4+, so there is a slight advantage for the heat lance. Now you've made me think about it though, the slight penetration advantage is outweighed by the ability to hit effectively at 18" rather than 9", especially for a force like DE that needs to constantly monitor relative position. Hmmm. For the above list I think I'll stick with heat lances as I don't know where I'd find the extra 6 pts, but I may rework the list in any case depending on feedback.

Ironically enough, rolling a 7+ on 2 dice is a %50 chance, the same as a 4+ on one dice. The Heat lance also has a %50 chance of wrecking/exploding a vehicle on a pen roll due to melta vs. a %33 chance for blasters against AV11 and 10. The down sides to the heat lance are the shorter range obviously, less useful vs MC's, and you can take fewer of them, meaning you stand a bigger chance of missing outright before getting to roll for pen etc. It also costs more to field units large enough to get more heat lances, except for scourges which is 5x regardless.

ThePhish wrote:

Sethorly wrote:
My reasoning with the heat lances rather than the blasters is that for AV12+, the heat lance would penetrate on a 7+ on 2d6, whereas the blaster would penetrate on a 4+, so there is a slight advantage for the heat lance. Now you've made me think about it though, the slight penetration advantage is outweighed by the ability to hit effectively at 18" rather than 9", especially for a force like DE that needs to constantly monitor relative position. Hmmm. For the above list I think I'll stick with heat lances as I don't know where I'd find the extra 6 pts, but I may rework the list in any case depending on feedback.

Slightly incorrect. The blaster can't pen on AV12+, only glance. Ironically enough, rolling a 7+ on 2 dice is a %50 chance, the same as a 4+ on one dice. The difference being that the heat lance has the potential to penetrate, where as the blaster doesn't. The Heat lance also has a %50 chance of wrecking/exploding a vehicle on a pen roll due to melta vs. a %33 chance for blasters against AV11 and 10. The down sides to the heat lance are the shorter range obviously, less useful vs MC's, and you can take fewer of them, meaning you stand a bigger chance of missing outright before getting to roll for pen etc. It also costs more to field units large enough to get more heat lances, except for scourges which is 5x regardless.

What are you on about? Blasters have this rule called lance. Meaning armor value of 13+ becomes 12. With a strength of 8 you can penetrate an armor value of 12+. Now heat lances are better but you have to be much closer. The edge is that you have both melta and lance so with average dice rolls of 2d6 is a 7 + the strength of the heat lance is 6 so on average you penetrate. The edge to blasters is range and the fact they are more readily available.

As for the list. I know I play venom spam so don't take everything as the way to go but I prefer 5 man scourge squads since they get the same number of special weapons for less points, compared to a 6 man reaver squad, since you need one less body. Also you break and can't rally at the same level. You trade off one point of toughness for an actua armor save with a jink invul.

Personally I can't stand hellions I would rather have more reavers or scourges. I do have a question though. Who are the haemies riding with?

Err... edited, I removed the stuff about the blaster and pen... I'm a crack head apparently.

It's ok we all make a mistake from time to time.

Looking at his lastest list i believe the haemies are meant to go in the 2 wrack raider/venom units.