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I know not each one had a birth like slaanash, but still, I wonder if he felt them gain sentience/power in the warp as humanity began to grow. If he did feel it, why in the hell didn't he destroy it before it gained power? AFAIK, the Empy is older then all of them, seeing as how each one seems to be associated with being "born" during events that the Emperor would have been alive for.

Because they draw power from all sentient forms across the galaxy. And the Emperor's in Human form; He cannot confront the Powers directly, just enought to stop them consuming the souls of non-Chaos worshipping Humans.

Tadashi wrote:Because they draw power from all sentient forms across the galaxy. And the Emperor's in Human form; He cannot confront the Powers directly, just enought to stop them consuming the souls of non-Chaos worshipping Humans.

Isn't that only believed by the Imperial Cult? They return directly to the warp, in which it is possible that a daemon consumes the soul before it dissipates, if not, its essence dissipates into the tides of the warp.

If Chaos has been around long enough for the cabal's concerted efforts be focused on its destruction then surely it predates the Emperor?

Chaos has been around sine Humanity's birth, but they became self aware in the 1500's.

If Chaos has been aorund since humanitys birth then why is slaanesh who was born at the Fall some millions of years ago the youngest of the gods? as millions of years ago predates humanity

FallenHero32 wrote:I know not each one had a birth like slaanash, but still, I wonder if he felt them gain sentience/power in the warp as humanity began to grow. If he did feel it, why in the hell didn't he destroy it before it gained power? AFAIK, the Empy is older then all of them, seeing as how each one seems to be associated with being "born" during events that the Emperor would have been alive for.

The only real answer is that only the Emperor could know, and he isn't telling anybody. I have never much liked the supposed dates of creation attribute to the Chaos Gods, partly because it seems rather overly anthropocentric for a galaxy supposedly containing myriad sapient lifeforms, and partly because it rather diminishes their mystique - they represent primordial, timeless concepts, why should their existence be tied to mankind?

Am I correct in remembering that the fluff stating that Khorne arose in the mediaeval era was printed in the Realm of Chaos books? If so, then I'd be doubly inclined to treat it with a mountain of salt.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:If Chaos has been aorund since humanitys birth then why is slaanesh who was born at the Fall some millions of years ago the youngest of the gods? as millions of years ago predates humanity

The Fall occurred at around 30,000 AD.

It cleared the Warp Storms and made it possible to embark on the Great Crusade.

In the original realm of chaos books it talks about each of the three chaos gods coming into being during the dark age period on Earth. A line on how War, Famine and rapid global change heralded the birth of chaos gods.

It also talks about how the emperor was created when the ancient Shamans started noticing minor corruptions in the natural warp. They were not being re-incarnated as they used to but were being lost to these corruptions. So they decided to sacrifice themselves in one fell swoop so that their souls merge to create a super being who will shepherd humanity and protect humanity as they did.


I can't remember the exact description or stories, but I think the above is an accurate enough summary.

zedmeister wrote:In the original realm of chaos books it talks about each of the three chaos gods coming into being during the dark age period on Earth. A line on how War, Famine and rapid global change heralded the birth of chaos gods.

It also talks about how the emperor was created when the ancient Shamans started noticing minor corruptions in the natural warp. They were not being re-incarnated as they used to but were being lost to these corruptions. So they decided to sacrifice themselves in one fell swoop so that their souls merge to create a super being who will shepherd humanity and protect humanity as they did.

I can't remember the exact description or stories, but I think the above is an accurate enough summary.

Sounds right to me. Given the age of the books in question, and how much the fluff has evolved since, I would be dubious about investing too much faith in their still being canonical. Also, I just really don't like the notion of tying the Chaos Gods so specifically to humanity, it rather goes against the atmosphere of the setting to make mankind such a special snowflake.

Chaos has been around since long before the birth of humanity, but the current four gods apparently became self aware after the Emperor, so it's likely he would have sensed the new flows in the Warp as they started using their powers. Though it still seems stupid to me that gods who live in a realm where time is meaningless could be given even an estimated birth date without something like the Eye having happened.

As for the souls of humans, non-psykers have such small registers in the Warp that they're barely of notice anyway, they would vanish the second they died with no chance for becoming daemon snacks. Psykers could have a worse time of it though.

The Realms of Chaos stated that by the Middle Ages all 3 Chaos gods had become self aware.

Khorne was described as first.

Then Tzeentch was described as coming next, as society became more complex. Possibly correlated with the rise of city states and later nations and empires during the ancient era? No exact details are given in the Realms of Chaos.

Finally Nurgle came last, triggering a wave of disease around the world. Possibly Black Death? It is never said explicitly.


The thing to remember is all 3 of these gods arose as the gods of a single planet and species. It is never said anywhere that they were at the same power level that they are now at in 40K. We know the Warp has many gods, many minor and fleeting. The gods of a primitive species (humanity) on a single world would have been similarly minor. Then as humanity spread in numbers across the galaxy, their racial gods would have grown with them.

We see the opposite parallel in the Eldar pantheon. The Eldar gods are described in the Dark Eldar Codex as weakening as traditional Eldar values and worship gave way to decadence and excess. As their empire and race weakened, so did their gods. Then finally Slaanesh was born, catapulting from nowhere to the top tier of gods through the consumption of the vast majority of all Eldar.

However with most of the Eldar gone, Slaanesh would have had to find new sources of power to draw upon to maintain its position: humanity. Slaanesh is an Eldar god that has now become popular among other species, particularly humans. This can be thought of as analogous to how in the past gods from one culture could gain followers in another, such as for example how the Egyptian goddess Isis became popular among Romans.

Iracundus wrote:The thing to remember is all 3 of these gods arose as the gods of a single planet and species. It is never said anywhere that they were at the same power level that they are now at in 40K. We know the Warp has many gods, many minor and fleeting. The gods of a primitive species (humanity) on a single world would have been similarly minor. Then as humanity spread in numbers across the galaxy, their racial gods would have grown with them.

Hmm. A good argument; I hadn't thought of it that way. I still don't really like the idea, since its anthropocentrism jars with the setting's overall atmosphere, but it makes the notion (if it is indeed still canonical) somewhat more acceptable.

English Assassin wrote:

Iracundus wrote:The thing to remember is all 3 of these gods arose as the gods of a single planet and species. It is never said anywhere that they were at the same power level that they are now at in 40K. We know the Warp has many gods, many minor and fleeting. The gods of a primitive species (humanity) on a single world would have been similarly minor. Then as humanity spread in numbers across the galaxy, their racial gods would have grown with them.

Hmm. A good argument; I hadn't thought of it that way. I still don't really like the idea, since its anthropocentrism jars with the setting's overall atmosphere, but it makes the notion (if it is indeed still canonical) somewhat more acceptable.

I like it...I've suspected for a while now, with all the hints about the Powers 'waiting' for the Emperor to take His place in the warp, that the Chaos Powers aren't actually the 'Powers of Chaos' but rather the Human Pantheon as opposed to the Eldar Pantheon. This raises an interesting possibility; when the Emperor dies, He becomes the fifth god, and the other gods are 'purified', that is to say, they become what they originally were, the gods of the Human race. True, the Imperium opposes them now, but then again, none of the Primarchs or anyone else were actually told by the Emperor of His plans, and there's a chance that everything since the Heresy has actually been a plot by the 'Powers' and the Emperor to seize control of the warp and reality from the Eldar and the other races.

Deathly Angel wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Because they draw power from all sentient forms across the galaxy. And the Emperor's in Human form; He cannot confront the Powers directly, just enought to stop them consuming the souls of non-Chaos worshipping Humans.

Isn't that only believed by the Imperial Cult? They return directly to the warp, in which it is possible that a daemon consumes the soul before it dissipates, if not, its essence dissipates into the tides of the warp.

This is a spoiler I guess,

Tadashi wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Iracundus wrote:The thing to remember is all 3 of these gods arose as the gods of a single planet and species. It is never said anywhere that they were at the same power level that they are now at in 40K. We know the Warp has many gods, many minor and fleeting. The gods of a primitive species (humanity) on a single world would have been similarly minor. Then as humanity spread in numbers across the galaxy, their racial gods would have grown with them.

Hmm. A good argument; I hadn't thought of it that way. I still don't really like the idea, since its anthropocentrism jars with the setting's overall atmosphere, but it makes the notion (if it is indeed still canonical) somewhat more acceptable.

I like it...I've suspected for a while now, with all the hints about the Powers 'waiting' for the Emperor to take His place in the warp, that the Chaos Powers aren't actually the 'Powers of Chaos' but rather the Human Pantheon as opposed to the Eldar Pantheon. This raises an interesting possibility; when the Emperor dies, He becomes the fifth god, and the other gods are 'purified', that is to say, they become what they originally were, the gods of the Human race. True, the Imperium opposes them now, but then again, none of the Primarchs or anyone else were actually told by the Emperor of His plans, and there's a chance that everything since the Heresy has actually been a plot by the 'Powers' and the Emperor to seize control of the warp and reality from the Eldar and the other races.

Put that way, it sounds more appealing (or at least less unappealing). Whether or not your musings are correct (and we'll probably never know for sure), they're a very interesting take on the Warhammer 40,000 universe's cosmology. Good thinking, consider yourself exalted.

Becoming self-aware could be easily reinterpreted as when these gods finally took active notice of our species. After all, our primitive forebears would not have been overly interesting for a primordial entity, but when we got numerous and sophisticated enough at killing each other, they finally tuned in to Earth TV. What before was a nebulous concept, now suddenly has an agenda. "Khorne", "Tzeench", etc were just new names given to something that was there all along.

Another way of thinking about it is that the warp is described as a ocean, with emotions/psychic emanations forming various eddies and whirlpools. These disturbances wax and wane, or occasionally collide with other similar phenomena, wherein one or both are destroyed, or occasionally merge into a greater whole. When they get large enough, they become self-sustaining; harsh reflections of their host species, growing from our darkest urges just as they drive us to them.

In line with the above, humanity's nascent whirlpools slowly grew, creating more and more disturbances in the Warp around Terra. Enter shaman-Emperor plan. Later, as they swelled to ever greater size with humanity's expansion, they swallowed the smaller whirlpools created by the galaxy's other species, and became the all-encompassing galactic entities we know and love. It's no wonder the Cabal wanted to kill all humanity. Without us, they would shrink like irradiated tumors.

English Assassin wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Iracundus wrote:The thing to remember is all 3 of these gods arose as the gods of a single planet and species. It is never said anywhere that they were at the same power level that they are now at in 40K. We know the Warp has many gods, many minor and fleeting. The gods of a primitive species (humanity) on a single world would have been similarly minor. Then as humanity spread in numbers across the galaxy, their racial gods would have grown with them.

Hmm. A good argument; I hadn't thought of it that way. I still don't really like the idea, since its anthropocentrism jars with the setting's overall atmosphere, but it makes the notion (if it is indeed still canonical) somewhat more acceptable.

I like it...I've suspected for a while now, with all the hints about the Powers 'waiting' for the Emperor to take His place in the warp, that the Chaos Powers aren't actually the 'Powers of Chaos' but rather the Human Pantheon as opposed to the Eldar Pantheon. This raises an interesting possibility; when the Emperor dies, He becomes the fifth god, and the other gods are 'purified', that is to say, they become what they originally were, the gods of the Human race. True, the Imperium opposes them now, but then again, none of the Primarchs or anyone else were actually told by the Emperor of His plans, and there's a chance that everything since the Heresy has actually been a plot by the 'Powers' and the Emperor to seize control of the warp and reality from the Eldar and the other races.

Put that way, it sounds more appealing (or at least less unappealing). Whether or not your musings are correct (and we'll probably never know for sure), they're a very interesting take on the Warhammer 40,000 universe's cosmology. Good thinking, consider yourself exalted.

Khorne (Humans) - Kaela Mensha Khaine (Eldar)
Tzeentch (Humans) - Vaul? Cegorach (Eldar)
Nurgle (Humans) - Morai-Heg? Ynnead? (Eldar)

Don't know how Slaanesh fits into this,,,although I doubt even if I'm correct that Slaanesh would become a Human god. Come to think of it, has anyone else noticed that all the original Powers (except Tzeentch, although for all we know he has something in mind) have confronted Slaanesh in the past? I mean not like the Great Game, but a deliberate confrontation of power? It's as if Slaanesh is something of an outcast even among the Powers...if so, it's probably more evidence that the 'Powers' are just incomplete/immature Human warp gods.

Not really. The gods constantly war with each other. Nurgle especially hates Tzeentch, Khorne expecially hates Slaanesh. Slaanesh just happened to have something Nurgle wanted, otherwise it wasn't any different to the normal Great Game.

And the Chaos gods aren't the gods of humanity. It took a galactic empire's decadence over hundreds of years to birth Slaanesh. A single planet couldn't have made three entities of such power.

Durza wrote:Not really. The gods constantly war with each other. Nurgle especially hates Tzeentch, Khorne expecially hates Slaanesh. Slaanesh just happened to have something Nurgle wanted, otherwise it wasn't any different to the normal Great Game.

And the Chaos gods aren't the gods of humanity. It took a galactic empire's decadence over hundreds of years to birth Slaanesh. A single planet couldn't have made three entities of such power.

Read my earlier post. Nowhere was it said the 3 other gods were birthed at their existing levels of power. Slaanesh was born and catapulted to the top of the tier of warp entities through consumption of almost the entire Eldar race in one moment. The gods of humanity (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle) were not born at the top. The Emperor was described in the Realms of Chaos as preceding them and struggled unsuccessfully to try and keep them from becoming conscious and self-aware.

Slaanesh is like the beggar that wins the super jackpot in a lottery and then becomes a billionaire overnight. That is entirely different from the situation of billionaires that worked and created their fortune over time.

Iracundus wrote:

Durza wrote:Not really. The gods constantly war with each other. Nurgle especially hates Tzeentch, Khorne expecially hates Slaanesh. Slaanesh just happened to have something Nurgle wanted, otherwise it wasn't any different to the normal Great Game.

And the Chaos gods aren't the gods of humanity. It took a galactic empire's decadence over hundreds of years to birth Slaanesh. A single planet couldn't have made three entities of such power.

Read my earlier post. Nowhere was it said the 3 other gods were birthed at their existing levels of power. Slaanesh was born and catapulted to the top of the tier of warp entities through consumption of almost the entire Eldar race in one moment. The gods of humanity (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle) were not born at the top. The Emperor was described in the Realms of Chaos as preceding them and struggled unsuccessfully to try and keep them from becoming conscious and self-aware.

Slaanesh is like the beggar that wins the super jackpot in a lottery and then becomes a billionaire overnight. That is entirely different from the situation of billionaires that worked and created their fortune over time.

Well, that would piss the other Powers off, kinda like 'new rich' or something. As for the Emperor...did He really try? I mean, if we use reverse psychology, isn't it more likely that the Emperor was trying to strengthen the Powers by telling Mankind not to do something to make them do it? And the Emperor's gotten stronger too since He ended up on the Throne.

How is he stronger? His dream is in ruins, he has subjected himself to unbelievable agony and encroaching madness for 10,000 years, and in Outcast Dead he aknowledges that the final moments of the Heresy won't be about assuring victory, but rather denying it to his enemy.

Of course, this revelation also puts the lie to the old tale that the Emperor only struggled against Horus because he still held some level of affection for his wayward son, and only lashed out when Horus killed the Imperial Fist/Custodian/Guardsman/whatever and proved his degeneracy. It also shows how close Horus really came to victory.

Omegus wrote:
Of course, this relevation also puts the lie to the old tale that the Emperor only struggled against Horus because he still held some level of affection for his wayward son, and only lashed out when Horus killed the Imperial Fist/Custodian/Guardsman/whatever and proved his degeneracy. It also shows how close Horus really came to victory.

Not necessary. The Emperor didn't think that Horus would leave himself so vulnerable. The (Bill King I think?) story mentions that the Emperor thinks that Horus won't leave any opening - he's too sound a tactician. It was only due to events beyond his control that he decided to lower his shields and try to grasp victory quickly rather than having to flee. Hence the Emperor holding back would still make sense.

Horus didn't leave any openings, Sanguinius gave his life to create "the most infinitesimal crack in the most impenetrable armour". The Emperor was warned of exactly what would happen at the final battle.

Omegus wrote:How is he stronger? His dream is in ruins, he has subjected himself to unbelievable agony and encroaching madness for 10,000 years, and in Outcast Dead he aknowledges that the final moments of the Heresy won't be about assuring victory, but rather denying it to his enemy.

He can manipulate warp storms (Storm of the Emperor's Wrath), stop time in His vicinity (Draco's audience), and bring Living Saints back to reality...and they're not psychic constructs; as so many people have pointed out, Mankind in it's current state is not powerful enough to affect the warp sufficiently to create their own 'custom' deities like the Eldar did. Someone, logically the Emperor is manipulating the warp to allow chosen servants of His to return to the material realm. And even if victory isn't assured, neither is it lost; the Great Enemy failed to achieve victory, and so a chance still exists for the future. A dream can be rebuilt, unlike the Imperium, the Emperor doesn't believe in 'hope is the first step to disappointment'. It may be different from His previous version, but the future isn't dead yet, no matter what Solomon Voss and the traitors say; don't forget, the Emperor is still Human, and Humans never give up on their dreams, and can make the impossible possible.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:If Chaos has been aorund since humanitys birth then why is slaanesh who was born at the Fall some millions of years ago the youngest of the gods? as millions of years ago predates humanity

Because Slaanesh was born 10000 years ago from present game setting and allowed for the IoM to be formed, the other gods formed a long time before that as they represent baser sentient instincts.