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We has a gaming situation at the local gaming store last night, and I was wondering if I could get any input on how we should rule it.

My friend was playing Orks, and he had attached a Warboss to his Snikrot Kommando squad and come in on his opponents side of the board. His opponent, another friend of mine playing Tau, proceeded to kill ever member of the squad except the Warboss. There was a debate as to whether the Warboss was forced to take a morale test at this point. The Warboss was attached to a squad that clearly lost more than 25% of its units, indicating that a morale check would normally be necessary. However, the Warboss is an IC, and the question was raised whether the IC was still a part of a squad that had been obliterated, and therefore had to take a morale test. Looking at the IC rules on pages 46 and 47, it indicates that an IC cannot leave a squad during the shooting or assault phases. This would indicated that the Warboss had to take the morale test. However, it is pretty clear he is not a part of the squad anymore as the squad is dead. So, ...

(1) Does an IC have to take a morale test after the squad he is attached to has been wiped out during the shooting phase?
(2) Does the IC count as being detached from the squad immediately after being out of coherency with the squad, or does this only happen during the movement phase?
(3)Does the IC have the opportunity to regroup at the beginning of the next movement phase, since he was a part of a squad which is below half-strength?

Thanks for the input.

Dukal wrote:(1) Does an IC have to take a morale test after the squad he is attached to has been wiped out during the shooting phase?

Yes - the unit he was joined to suffered 25% losses.

(2) Does the IC count as being detached from the squad immediately after being out of coherency with the squad, or does this only happen during the movement phase?

Only during the movement phase (I believe there's an exception for disembarking from a destroyed vehicle, but that doesn't apply here even if I'm correct)

(3)Does the IC have the opportunity to regroup at the beginning of the next movement phase, since he was a part of a squad which is below half-strength?

I'm not 100% sure on that - I'd let him regroup but I don't recall the RAW on this.

I have myself going around in a bit of a catch-22 regarding the IC's ability to regroup. According the IC rules, he detaches from the unit (which no longer exists) whenever he is more than 2' away from the unit. Therefore, he would be able to take a morale test to regroup after the next movement phase. However, the IC rules also state that an IC cannot detach from a unit that is falling back, meaning that it would be impossible for him to ever detach (even though he is clearly 2' away from any member of the destroyed unit), and therefore the IC would be forced to fall back until hitting his own board edge. I am just not sure how to rule this situation, and I would appreciate any specific BRB ruling that could be found.

rigeld2 wrote:

Dukal wrote:(1) Does an IC have to take a morale test after the squad he is attached to has been wiped out during the shooting phase?

Yes - the unit he was joined to suffered 25% losses.

Do you have a reference for this? I just ask because I know IC's don't count toward unit strength for morale tests, so it is odd that they're still affected by a unit that is no longer there, that they do not count for.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Dukal wrote:(1) Does an IC have to take a morale test after the squad he is attached to has been wiped out during the shooting phase?

Yes - the unit he was joined to suffered 25% losses.

Do you have a reference for this? I just ask because I know IC's don't count toward unit strength for morale tests, so it is odd that they're still affected by a unit that is no longer there, that they do not count for.

They're still a part of the unit until the next movement phase. For example, if there was one member of the unit left would you argue the IC doesn't run away on failure?
There's no difference - the unit suffered losses, the unit failed the morale test, the unit - including the IC - runs away.

Makes me wonder, a unit of 4 IC's cannot be broken, since none of them count for morale losses?

puma713 wrote:Makes me wonder, a unit of 4 IC's cannot be broken, since none of them count for morale losses?

Sounds valid... interesting if a bit pointless.

I would say no he doesn't run away because the unit no longer exists. Even though he was attached to it, the rules for him detaching only pertain to "choosing" to leave the unit. If the unit no longer exists and the opposing player is awarded the kill point, he is no longer attached.

Where are you getting the ICs don't count toward casualties for morale purposes bit? Page# please?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you are confusing this:
Q: How do Independent Characters that have joined a
squad effect working out if a squad is below half
strength or not? (p48)
A: Independent Characters are not counted when
working out if a squad is below half strength or not.
The exception to this is if an Independent Character is
with a Retinue (in which case he is counted when
working out if the squad is below half strength).

It's in the main book faq on gw website.

Not that I can find.

Kevin949 wrote:It's in the main book faq on gw website.

The FAQ response is dealing with determining if the unit is below 50%.

It does not say that ICs don't count towards unit size for any other purpose. They are a part of the unit, so they are counted when determining 25% casualties for morale tests.

insaniak wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:It's in the main book faq on gw website.

The FAQ response is dealing with determining if the unit is below 50%.

It does not say that ICs don't count towards unit size for any other purpose. They are a part of the unit, so they are counted when determining 25% casualties for morale tests.

You're right, he posted the FAQ as I posted my response and didn't realize they were slightly different (though it's silly that the unit is affected in one situation and not the other, to much nuance in this game).

I still think the original question is important though. I have always played that if the IC is left alone than they don't test, but it appears I may be incorrect.

The IC is a "normal member of tthe unit" (page 48 and 49) until the IC decides to leave it, whcih he can only do in the owning players movement phase.

So yes, he must test, and will fall back again in his movement phase, as he hasnt left until after his movement has ended.

Thanks, Nos!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So yes, he must test, and will fall back again in his movement phase, as he hasnt left until after his movement has ended.

So an IC may never rally*? Since he was a part of the unit, the unit broke because it was reduced below 25%, and he (still being a part of the unit and still fleeing) cannot leave the unit whilst it is fleeing?






*unless it is has ATSKNF.

puma713 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So yes, he must test, and will fall back again in his movement phase, as he hasnt left until after his movement has ended.

So an IC may never rally*? Since he was a part of the unit, the unit broke because it was reduced below 25%, and he (still being a part of the unit and still fleeing) cannot leave the unit whilst it is fleeing?






*unless it is has ATSKNF.

No, what happens is:
1) IC fails morale and falls back
2) IC turn comes up and he falls back since he is still in the unit and under half.
3) End of movement phase occurs and he is more than 2" from the unit he was joined to so he is now independent and can rally next turn.

He cannot voluntarily *choose* to leave, however when you determine if he is a member of a unit, you find he isnt. Same way an IC who has his unit shot out around him will leave his unit on his turn, even if he doesnt want to!

How does that mesh with the IC rules which states that "An independent character may not join or leave a unit while either he or the untit is locked in combat or falling back", page 48 of the BRB? I understand that leaving the unit in these circumstances is not voluntary, but the prohibition from leaving the unit does not seem to be have any exceptions.

In the context of the rules this HAS to be a choice, otherwise you would be prohibited from killing the last member of an ICs unit.

I would have said that once the unit ceases to exist the IC can no longer be considered part of the unit.

"An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

As the rule states the become part of the unit at the end of the movement phase but they leave the unit at any time in the movement phase by not being coherent with it.

As it starts the movement phase out of coherency and it cannot move back into coherency as there is nothing to move into I'd say it is no longer associated with the unit.

I think the vehicle disembarking rule kind of points in that direction.

My vote would be for them to be able to test for regroup at the start of the next movement phase, provided there are no enemies within 6".

That would be my vote as well. Since I play Black Templars and have ATSKNF, this ruling does not affect my army either way, but I feel like that is the best interpretation for my opponents.

puma713 wrote:Makes me wonder, a unit of 4 IC's cannot be broken, since none of them count for morale losses?

Except that is not what the FAQ says. It says they don't count towards the unit being above or below 50%. A joined group of 4 IC (or even just 2) that loses one model is going to have to take a morale test as their "unit" has suffered 25% or more casualties.

"As it starts the movement phase out of coherency and it cannot move back into coherency as there is nothing to move into I'd say it is no longer associated with the unit. "

You check coherency at the end of a units move, not the start. He leaves the unit, therefore, at the end of his move.

Otherwise you are saying the Shrike jump is legal, which it isnt

nosferatu1001 wrote:"As it starts the movement phase out of coherency and it cannot move back into coherency as there is nothing to move into I'd say it is no longer associated with the unit. "

You check coherency at the end of a units move, not the start. He leaves the unit, therefore, at the end of his move.

Otherwise you are saying the Shrike jump is legal, which it isnt

The rule for an IC leaving says it can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency with it , I would have thought that the leaving takes place the moment the IC moves out of coherency and it seems logical to follow that if he has nothing to be coherent with he has left.

What is the Shrike jump?

Magpie wrote:The rule for an IC leaving says it can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency with it , I would have thought that the leaving takes place the moment the IC moves out of coherency and it seems logical to follow that if he has nothing to be coherent with he has left.

But you don't know if the IC has moved out of coherency until the unit has finished moving.

You don't check coherency while the unit is moving, otherwise you would never be able to move models further than 2" at a time. They just have to finish their movement in coherency... which by extension means that the end of the movement is when you determine that the IC is no longer in coherency.

What is the Shrike jump?

Putting Shrike (or any 'flying' IC) with a slower moving unit, and leapfrogging them over the unit to make use of their extra movement distance by 'leaving' the unit at the start of the movement and finishing the movement still in coherency.

Doesn't actually work, because you leave the unit by moving out of coherency with them, not by declaring that you are going to do so.

insaniak wrote:Doesn't actually work, because you leave the unit by moving out of coherency with them, not by declaring that you are going to do so.

But that is exactly what I am saying, the act of moving out of coherency is the moment you become no longer associated with the unit. So as soon as you move away, in another direction for example or move to a spot the unit can stay in coherency with you is the moment you aren't part of the unit any more. Granted in some cases it will be necessary to check if you are out of coherency, but in most cases it will be obvious and even more so if there is no one else left in the unit.

It bothers me to see a non-existent unit having an effect on an IC like that. Intensive RaW supports the IC falling back, but I would prefer to play it as an IC being unable to be part of a destroyed unit. Could fluff it as a disheartened commander fleeing the scene of grizzly destruction, but I don't like the overall feel of it.
But rules are not feelings. If it's a fun game with friends, play as you will. If it's for keeps and the other guy really want to stick with RaW, take the turns of fall back. Most IC's have a decent leadership anyway, so chances are no fallback will even occur.

Magpie wrote:But that is exactly what I am saying, the act of moving out of coherency is the moment you become no longer associated with the unit.

Except it's not, or the IC would leave the unit every time they are the first to move.

For that matter, you wouldn't ever be able to move an IC without leaving the unit he is joined to, unless the unit keeps its models spread out so that there is always a model within 2" along the path of the IC's movement.

You don't know that the IC has left coherency until the entire unit has finished moving. At any other point in the movement, you haven't finished moving everybody, so there is no way to establish that the unit is out of coherency.