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I will post in more detail if anyone really wants to know the anal differences between the various marks (such as the seven different exhaust systems used on Ausf As) but I wanted to make a note before I get my Panther book out regarding Zimmerit.

Factory Application began in December 1943 (with a ordered dated November 1943 referring to the field application of Zimmerit for units already in service) and ended on 9th September 1944 (the order to rescinf field application is date 17th October 1944) due to fears that it was adversely flammable. This was false and the real reason for stopping its use was the lack of magnetic anti-tank mines (really only the Germans themselves used them in any quantity) and also the fact that application and drying times added an uneeded delay to tank production.

This then means that Ausf Ds would only have field application of Zimmerit (production having ceased in September 1943), the vast majority of Ausf As would have recieved it (their production run started in August 1943 and ended in June 1944) with most without likely getting a field application. The Ausf G production started in March 1944 so around 40% of them would have recieved a coating based on monthly production figures.

Of course its really best to base it on the theme of your army. If you are doing a Normandy theme, then Zimmerit should be in abundance... Kursk, no Zimmerit and the same goes for the Ardennes though it is possible to find examples of it.

Now do you want more detail on the differences between the various versions?

Will write something up.

The main thing to bear in mind with Panther variants is the changes were not globally assinged to certain variants... So the 'upgrades' feature accross the different versions.

Thus you get 'A's with both the ball mount MG and the earlier letterbox flap, and A's with the tri-exhaust and the unarmoured two exhausts. You can also find A's with the D pattern commanders cupola but they could have originally been D's upgraded.

I dont have the PSC kit as they aint released the 20mm version yet (though Will from PSC is bringing me some new 20mm test sprues when he is over for a game at the end of March) so if anyone has a hi-res, large format picture of the sprue I can probably better direct my comments in relation to that, as I notice there is only two rear engine deck patterns which lends me to believe only the angled air intakes and the Late G pattern is produced.




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mwnciboo wrote:I hope your wrong, because I wanted Panther A's for my Lehr Division not D's and I didn't think to check online, I just followed the instructions...So now I have D's when I wanted A's......

Panzer Lehr had 'D's in Normandy too...

It all depends what period or unit you are doing.

From looking at the sprue, none seem correct for Kursk as the air intakes on the D have angular louvres, when the initial D run had straight ones. Hence the overheating and the change to angled intakes to push more air into the engine.

The turrets also dont seem to have the pistol ports.

The letterbox flaps was present on both the D and A, till replaced later in the A series run with the ball mount.

Various types of exhaust were used on all models.

D's can be used in Normandy (Lehr and HJ had them);










The thing to remember is the fitting of upgrades was dependant on factory and availability as seen here with these Ausf As from Panzer Lehr with what seems to be the old mantlet and letterbox MG;






Regarding exhausts...

Ausf D;




Ausf A;




Ausf A with twin exhausts;




Ausf G with exhaust covers;




Early Ausf G with twin pipe exhaust;





So if you are building a specific unit its worth taking the time to research not only the version they had, but also if that was a standard model or one of the hybrid types.

There are actually three British studies conducted by British Army survey teams on Panther losses. Two done during Normandy and one in the Ardennes.

Over the thre surveys they found 63 Panthers with AP as cause of loss, while destroyed or abandoned by crew accounted for 103. Aircraft rockets accounted for 11 (with aircraft cannons getting 3) and hollow charge projectiles only 8, less than HE which was ascertained to have knocked-out 11. Finally 24 Panthers were listed as destroyed by unknown cause.

Well standerd response of any WW2 tank crew when hit, is generally to bail out first, then see if its damaged.

Not sit in it hoping it aint. Unless youre in a Tiger I. They are pretty much impervious.

Its part of the reason that despite large losses of tanks, the loss of Allied crews was not strictly comparable. Most bailed out and eventually went and got a new tank... Certainly during Goodwood, one British officer had three Shermans shot out from under him.

The funny thing about Normandy is that the Germans suffered utter panic about Allied air attacks and abandoned tanks at the sound of them.

However aircraft had virtually no chance of hitting a target on the ground that was tank sized. In tests on a stationary target, 30ft square, the British found that a Typhoon firing all its rockets in a single salvo at the target had a 3% chance of registering a hit. On a moving target chances were almost nil. Losses of ground attack planes were enourmous as they tried to make up for the poor accuracy of their weapons. Over 3000 ground attack aircraft were lost by the Allies in Normandy to German flak.

US 2nd TACAIR lost 829 and US 9th Air lost 897 on their own over Normandy.

During the Mortain counter-attack, the US claimed 112 and the British 140 tanks destroyed by aircraft... After action survey teams found that only 46 had been lost in total and of those, only nine had been hit by air weapons.

Of couse against columns of vehicles and trains, rockets could prove effective, but the safest place to be in Normandy during an attack by a ground attack plane, was in a tank.

Of the 40 Tiger Is in Normandy, only one was hit by an air weapon and that was a heavy bomb.

And?

I can point you too a myriad of accounts that say the opposite. Try Dr John Buckleys' 'British Armour in Normandy' for starters, as its also a great one for showing the true reason for Sherman fires, and its nothing to do with the petrol engines but the ammo stowage.


With a Sherman, you got out first, then if it wasnt on fire, went back and checked if it was still a runner. If it was, you got back in. If it wasnt, you went back to get another...

mwnciboo wrote:Will do, having a look in Ian Allen for that book tomorrow, thanks for the reference.

Let me know if you need help locating a copy... It was pretty pricey.

(I bought it,but only cos I got a name check in the Forward... I used to work with John lecturing on Normandy).

First hit on Google...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Armour-Normandy-Campaign-Buckley/dp/0714653233

Yes, if the crew felt a hit from a high calibre AP or HE round they would abandoned it dependant on the type of vehicle of course, but the last place you want to be is in a burning tank. With late-war German tanks, especially Panthers non-pentarting hits could do as much damage as the low grade steel used in the armour production often caused spalling inside the tank.

Panthers and Panzer IVs were as likely to burn from a pentrating hit as a Sherman.

The problem is, in those few milliseconds after a hit, you dont know whether it has penetrated or indeed if anything has happened... and its those seconds that you waste wondering that can save your life.

US Sherman crews played on this by firing smoke and Willie Pete rounds at German tanks, especially Panthers, with the reultant bang on the armour and big plume of smoke making the German crew bail out thinking they had been hit and were on fire.

Crews would get out, if the situation required it and assess the damage. The more experienced the crew, often the quicker they could make these decisions, and the quicker you get out of a tank in WW2, often the better your chance of surviving a hit. So, especially with Allied tank crews, discretion was most certainly the order of the day, as was living to fight again.

Small Arms fire would also make tanks beat a retreat as evidenced by the actions at Calais in 1940 when Bren Gun fire drove off several attacks by Panzer IIs. This same tactic is repeated in NWE during 1944 and US troops often engaged German armour with MG fire in order to close it down and force it to retire, as tank crews realised that heavy small arms fire indicated infantry in close proximity and likely pinning of their own supporting infantry.

On Panther losses, the British reports do not indicate either of your suppositions. No evidence can prove that they were abandoned due to this as it is unknown, we can only surmise that some broke down or ran out of fuel, we cannot state that it was the case in the majority, only offer it as a possibility. Indeed many were simply lost due to a lack of getting them over the Seine and other rivers. Some were also lost through stupidity, such as Ernst Barkmann when he tried to tow another Panther with his own, despite it being against orders, and promptly overstrained his own Panther that burst into flames and sprad to the other tank, eventually destroying both.

Ah yes... But Willi Fey also talks about 'Barkmann's Corner' and the battle that was... How shall we say... Embellished?

Dont get me started on the Waffen-SS 'Tank Ace' propaganda machine, started by Goebbels and still perpetuated today by historians who cant be arsed to do some proper checking.

Oh dont believe they were above it.

Several aviation historians I know believe they upped Hans Ulrich Rudels tally by giving him all the kills from his entire squadron.

These men were the 'Beckhams' of the war, they drove civilian morale and were superstars. After Villers-Bocage, Wittmann was pulled out of the line to go on a tour of German factories to urge the workers on. Its a credit to the little Nazi that he quickly put the kybosh on it and was back in the line very quickly, only to get stuck one from a Firefly while being too cocky.

Wittmans account of Villers-Bocage, written at Panzer Lehr HQ that afternoon, is very different from the version later released and much of the latter version is utter balls, such as him returning to Villers-Bocage, Panzerfaust in hand, dealing death after losing his tank.

Wittmann wasnt stupid. Once his tank was immobile he legged it to report back. The tanks that returned later in the afternoon were from 1st Kompanie, not 2nd as Wittmanns.

Now many great and valourous deeds were certainly committed for the Third Reich, and most awards were well deserved, but they were not above embellishing the facts to make it even more astounding and to feed the civilian desire for heroes...

Nazi propaganda was a truly awesome piece of work, so well done that many historians still swallow it up now. Take a read of Gordon Williamson's account of Villers-Bocage in his book 'Aces of the Reich' and then compare it to Dan Taylor's forensic examination of the battle in 'Villers-Bocage through the Lense' or Patrick Agte's account using German sources in 'Wittmann and the Tiger Commanders of the LAH'.

If you want pure fantasy, then look at the 'kill' tallies claimed by ground attack pilots in Normandy.

Utter rubbish. All sides were very loose when it came to varifiable claims. Its why the British developed battlefield survey teams who would examine the battlefield after the fighting. I remember one anecdotal comment told to me by a US tanker. He remembered a knocked-out Panther in a hedgerow just round a bend in a road. He was leading a column and had pulled off the road to watch the terrain ahead. Every tank that came round the corner, halted and opened fire on the Panther wreck. He was in no doubt that every tank crew had claimed the kill.

Barkmann suffers from issues more to do with 'Barkmann's Corner' than anything else. The towing Panther stunt is a side issue, and the truth is somewhere in between I suspect.

This action, as described by him, fails to tally with the American primary sources... and even some German ones. In the area where he suppossedly knocks out a column of Shermans, none were reported lost on the day he cites.

There is more to it than just that, but recent research seems to point to a little embellishment.

There is an interesting thread on it here;

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1360781

The "tank" unit that Barkmann "delayed" was Troop A, 4th Cavalry Squadron (Mecz), reinforced by one platoon of E Troop (two M8 HMC) and one platoon of F Company (five M5 Light Tanks), reinforced by Battery B, 391st Field Artillery (correction: that should have been six M7 GMC). The troop was screening the flank of the southward advance by the 1st ID and CCB, 3rd AD on Marigny and southwest to Coutances and wasn't very interested in advancing due west. There was no record of air support being available and none was called for so if Barkmann was attacked by aircraft it was by accident.

1st Platoon lost four "vehicles" including two tanks and 3rd Platoon lost all its 1/4-ton GP. So Barkmann's score was actually two M5 Light Tanks, two M8 AC or GP, and six GP; ten vehicles in total. At least he got the numbers close to correct.

By that evening Marigny had fallen and the advance by the 1st ID and CCB continued west along the Coutances-Marigny Road with little interference, well south of La Lorey, turning north in the afternoon and seizing Comprond, well behind Barkmann. I'm not sure I could characterize his actions as a delay, let alone as significant, since A Troop accomplished its mission successfully.

The thing is why would anyone who was part of the system of the Nazi war machine in late 1944 question anything?

You are dealing with a state, where the media was a fundamental key to its control and policy making. It was not media as we know it, but a means of population assimilation and control.

If the embellishments in turn help to propagate the correct view and raise civilian morale, what is the harm for those in power?

You have to remember the entire system is based on the cult of the personality, from its leader to its foot soldiers.

By showing off these 'Warrior Knights' the Nazi propaganda machine was able to show exactly what it wanted to... You will also notice that those accounts that vary from reality seem to be mainly confined to Waffen-SS personnel. I have often wondered if in that lies the key, that Goebbels had more control of what was issued regarding Waffen-SS fighters.

Of course many deserved their awards and a little embelishment here and there, should not distract from the bravery shown by many, albeit in the service of a despicable regime.

But that is by no means to say they are the only ones. Hans von Luck made himself a fortune with his memoirs and was never one to let truth get in the way of a good story.

Look at any book on German tank aces... and see if it actually has the top scoring ace in it.

Gordon Williamson's book 'Aces of the Reich' lists Wittmann as the top tank ace.

Which is bollocks.

At best he was third behind two Heer Tiger aces. Otto Carius is generally accepted to be second, but the highest scoring ace - Kurt Knispel - is rarely mentioned.

Why?

Simply put he was a Heer soldier, who didnt like the limelight, shunned attempts at fame and left it to the SS glory boys to hog the limelight.

Not only that be he had a record of being againsyt the regime, he is even reputed to have beaten up an Einsatzgruppen Officer who he saw mistreating POWs. He also threw conformity in the face of the Nazis... He wore his hair longer than allowed and grew a goatee beard.

It is said only his combat record stopped him being in a military prison. His lowest estimated kill count is 168, but some sources place it as high as 195.



He died in his Tiger II fighting the Russians in 1945.

For me, he is the true tank ace and the one that books should focus on instead of jumped up little Nazi fanboys like Wittmann.

He is the original 'Oddball'

Anti-establishment is the phrase you want.