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So I saw the new True Scale Marines; "Knights Praetorius", serving "The Empress".

This seems to be at least a bit of a step away from proclaiming their products SPACE MARINE SHOULDERPADS or JETBIKE. Or ELDAR WARLOCK ON JETBIKE.

I realise that I'm probably stirring one hell of a flame pit by stating this opinion, so I hope I can at least show some tact: I've got nothing against CH's products, I wish them luck with it all.

But wasn't it quite willfully stirring a hornet's nest to disturb GW's IP? I mean the company is effectively obligated to defend it. So many other manufacturers just call their stuff 'System Troopers' or 'Imperatorum Soldiers' or some crap. I don't understand why that wasn't the intention from the beginning. It seems that implicit suggestion that the parts are compatible with GW stuff (and when it comes to MicroArt Studios and the like, hell, *everyone* knows what the stuff is for). Wasn't this the better state of affairs? Surely we wish GW all due health as a business at times because 40k's fate is inevitably tied to its well being (not to say that I'm some raving fanboy who will justify failcast or price hikes, but this is damage being done for no real reason, in my opinion).

Anyhoo, that's a step away from the topic I intended to cover: Has ChapterHouse finally stepped away from blatantly treading on IP and started to demonstrate some actual tact? It's like they were asking to be sued before. Especially since Space Marine is one of those little trade mark'd terms you see at the bottom of the legal screens on DoW games... (so I presume the term itself is GW IP? I don't know law...)

Oh and as a post-script: I avoid the thread on the court proceedings because A. Law doesn't sit well with me; well, it can when actual people with know-how explain it, but I don't really trust randoms on the internets and their 'professional opinions', B. It's a long thread and intimidating; there's no real summary of what's going on for nubtards like me. C. This thread, being about CH's branding, seemed to warrant a new one though I imagine a mod may well lock it since it's a tad contentious, I'm not sure.

Anyhoo, discuss, let's not flame too hard.

Henners91 wrote:Oh and as a post-script: I avoid the thread on the court proceedings because A. Law doesn't sit well with me; well, it can when actual people with know-how explain it, but I don't really trust randoms on the internets and their 'professional opinions',

For the record, there are 2 "actual people with know how"(biccat and Weeble1000 are actually lawyers) that regularly comment on the thread to break it down in layman's terms when things happen and people have question pertaining to the legality of the case.

Stick to their posts and you'll get a good idea of what's what.

Maybe, it'll require quite the flick through, mind! (72 pages or something?)

Janthkin occasionally comments in there as well and has a background in law, but I don't think it's copyright law.

Kanluwen wrote:Janthkin occasionally comments in there as well and has a background in law, but I don't think it's copyright law.

So did Polonius early on, who's also a lawyer, but he does state it's not in copyright law.

I believe Weeble DOES mention he's worked copyright cases before.

I'd suggest playing the Ctrl F game on the thread, as people's opinions on the situation vary and generally have nothing to do with actual law.

Yeah, Weeble and Biccat both have stated they worked copyright cases before---which is what makes watching their commentary educational.

edit

The problem was that CH were arrogant as all get out and when questioned stated that their lawyer had told them they were solid and ner ner ner, GW can't do anything.

Corrode wrote:The problem was that CH were arrogant as all get out and when questioned stated that their lawyer had told them they were solid and ner ner ner, GW can't do anything.

That's a poor, not to mention incorrect, simplification of the matter.

infinite_array wrote:

Corrode wrote:The problem was that CH were arrogant as all get out and when questioned stated that their lawyer had told them they were solid and ner ner ner, GW can't do anything.

That's a poor, not to mention incorrect, simplification of the matter.

It's not a terrible one though.

Early on, that was essentially a "hallmark" of CH's posting here. Some would suggest they alter the names of a few things--and not always in a friendly manner, mind you. It got to the point where a lot of CH threads devolved into flamefests where one corner would call them unflattering names and CH would respond with posts essentially saying that "Our lawyers told us we're great, so feth GW".

Then, they did the not-Doom of Malan'tai and the not-Farseer, which basically was Codex material with a few words replaced with a thesaurus for the same effect.

^And I'd approve of that; if GW makes gaps then good business should fill in the gaps; it's better for the consumer.

However, I understand that in some countries (I think Germany? At least, this is the stated reason for GW destroying Damnatus) require you to defend your IP or else you lose rights to it? I am not sure if that applies here.

Neither way, it would have set a horrid precedent if GW didn't do anything; I think they're rather forced to act if a company flagrantly throws around GW product alternatives WITH the names. I'd find it so much easier to sympathise with CH if they just hadn't done that. It's a big fuss that didn't need to happen that's ultimately damaging the hobby.

Seems an adequate summary:
http://www.mi40k.com/2011/01/04/chapterhouse-sued-by-games-workshop/

It is difficult to discuss legal matters with someone, who doesn't want to thoroughly deal with the topic, but nevertheless wants to post his aggressive uninformed layman opinion on legal matters.

Fact is that with Knights Praetorius, Chapterhouse makes complete models that are not related to GW IP, so no need to name them after GW IP (GW also didn't name their Space Marines after Starship Troopers or Star Wars Stormtroopers).

Fact is that GW struggles to give any proof that Chapterhouse infringed on GW IP in any case (making obviously ridiculous claims like claiming copyright on arrows, roman numbers etc), but to be fair, the lawsuit is still in progress.

Also, the Damnatus case has to do with something else (in Germany every author automatically has copyright on his work and can't lose it, so Damnatus creators would have had copyright on some GW IP).

In typical layman's style I'll resort to pictures:

Here're our uncanny resemblances




Here're our blatantly dissimilar products.

Kroothawk wrote:It is difficult to discuss legal matters with someone, who doesn't want to thoroughly deal with the topic, but nevertheless wants to post his aggressive uninformed layman opinion on legal matters.

Pot calling kettle, come in kettle!

Fact is that with Knights Praetorius, Chapterhouse makes complete models that are not related to GW IP,

Yes...clearly.

Makes you wonder why the shots of them show GW parts being used. Huh.

so no need to name them after GW IP (GW also didn't name their Space Marines after Starship Troopers or Star Wars Stormtroopers).

What?

Fact is that GW struggles to give any proof that Chapterhouse infringed on GW IP in any case (making obviously ridiculous claims like claiming copyright on arrows, roman numbers etc), but to be fair, the lawsuit is still in progress.

Yes, and to be fair Chapterhouse has been compelled to provide quite a bit of evidence for being just as wishywashy as GW in terms of how they've answered these suits.

Both sides are behaving like children caught with their hands in mommy's purse, and trying to point the finger at one another.

But that's the legal system for you!

Also, the Damnatus case has to do with something else (in Germany every author automatically has copyright on his work and can't lose it, so Damnatus creators would have had copyright on some GW IP).

While Henners is incorrect in using it--a few of CH's sculptors do reside in Germany.

Kroothawk wrote:Fact is that GW struggles to give any proof that Chapterhouse infringed on GW IP in any case (making obviously ridiculous claims like claiming copyright on arrows, roman numbers etc), but to be fair, the lawsuit is still in progress.

Funny how the law suit concerning the innocent Chapterhouse is discussed in infinite detail on a forum dedicate to fans of GW's IP. Looking at the CH website all of the stuff is very obviously derivative of the GW 40k stuff, GW are well entitled to investigate to see if someone is commercially exploiting their IP.