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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 05:58:48
Subject: Chaos vs. Loyalist Space Marines
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I'm new to 40k and was wondering how Chaos Space Marines compare to their loyalist counterparts on the tabletop. I've heard that loyalists are superior to CSM, but i'm not sure whether this is true. Also, is there any news about a 5th edition CSM codex? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 06:32:07
Subject: Chaos vs. Loyalist Space Marines
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Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge
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The Chaos Space Marines codex is unfortunately a very dated book from a brief period where GW was homogenizing everything. Thankfully it only lasted for two proper codices and one WD codex. One of the reasons loyalists are generally superior is because they (aside from the Dark Angels) didn't get this homogenized treatment, and have many, many more options.
For the chief differences between the two, we'll look at a Codex Marine and a Chaos Marine. The codex Marine has the same statline, same armor, same gun, and mostly the same options. Where he's better is in the special rule And They Shall Know No Fear, which lets them regroup no matter what. Also in the Combat Tactics special rule, which lets the Marines fall back whenever they want, or can be replaced by myriad other special abilities conferred by a character.
Chaos Marines get the bonuses of an extra attack standard thanks to the bolt pistol and close combat weapon, and Icons of Chaos. These confer different abilities based on their allegiance, but the only really useful one is the Icon of Chaos Glory, since that lets you reroll failed leadership tests.
The two basic Marines almost balance out, with a slight edge to the Codex Marines. Even if they're not as good in close combat, they can fall back and rapid fire again if they want.
Chaos Marines also have access to the cult Marines - Plague Marines, Khorne Berserkers, Noise Marines, and Thousand Sons. The last two have their uses, but are expensive and not extra great. Berserkers and Plague Marines, however, outclass most other troops in the game. Plague Marines are really, really tough to kill, and not too expensive. They're the best unit in the codex, given their durability and scoring ability, not to mention access to special weapons, defensive grenades for tarpitting, and 2 attacks each for close combat. Berserkers are solid too, and can tear through most troops without much trouble.
So I'm honestly just rambling here, but a greater proportion of the Space Marines codex is useful. While not everything is great, almost everything in it can find its way into a half decent list. Chaos Marines, unfortunately, have a lot of stinker units, like possessed and spawn; choices that are outclassed too easily, like Chaos Marines vs. Plague Marines, or Lords and Sorcerers vs. Daemon Princes, and options that are downright unpredictable like dreadnoughts or daemon weapons. Chaos Marines just have a bland codex that limits what they can do, and pales in comparison to their staggering previous codex. I hope for a comfortable balance between the two when they get their next book. The current rumors are that they'll get a place in the starter set come this Fall, with a codex to support it around that time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 08:13:48
Subject: Chaos vs. Loyalist Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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SM have more toys, and better of them, but CSM has WAY better core units.
My only real complaint between these two is that the SM codex gives you a lot more options for different play styles (drop pod lists, all-bike, all-dread, etc.) than the current CSM book, which basically just has two ways to play - foot and mech. Not that I'm complaining TOO much, as other codecies even more recent than CSM are similarly limited, but in a comparison between these two, that's the only thing that bugs me.
As for which is better, I'd say CSM over SM. SM has some better shooting options, especially in the 24"-36" slots, what with the assault cannons and the ability to spam multimeltas, but CSM can also be a very shooty army, while at the same time having the ability to put down some MEAN CC options. The difference between a SM squad with a melta and a multimelta vs. a CSM squad with a melta and a lascannon isn't all that much, but the difference between assault marines and khorne berzerkers is much, much more pronounced.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/03/06 14:29:24
Subject: Chaos vs. Loyalist Space Marines
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There are a couple of problems with the chaos 'dex.
1. It is an older codex and GW has been retooling their point costs since then. So most everything in the chaos codex is going to cost 10-20 percent more than what a loyalist pays for it. This means right off the bat you are down 10-20 percent in points vs newer codex. So at 2000 points chaos only effectively has 1800 or so points worth of stuff.
2. Another big problem is this is the edition where Games workshop made a marketing decision to split chaos into two separate codex. They have done this in the past with fantasy battle, ruining good solid armies like Undead, and the previous Hordes of Chaos lists.
What this does is invalidate a lot of the models people have bought for their army. Brilliant from a marketing perspective, because now all those people have to go out and buy more stuff just to be able to field a legal army. But it leaves a sour taste in the players mouth. A lot of people will put the army down in disgust and play a completely different army. Or game system...
So the current chaos codex has some issues. It is really only half a book compared to the old book, with the other half residing in codex:chaos demons. That and the ridiculous point costs mean it is like playing with an arm tied behind your back. There are still some decent choices in the list, but not nearly as many. And if you wanted to play one of the big four legions, well, without proper demons those really took a hit.
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