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2000 Pts - Eldar Seer Councils

173 - Farseer - Eldar Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Guide, Runes of Warding, Singing Spear
505 - 10 Warlocks - Eldar Jetbikes, all Singing Spears
1 with Enhance
2 with Embolden

160 - Farseer - Eldar Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Doom
520 - 10 Warlocks - Eldar Jetbikes
1 With Enhance
1 With Embolden
5 With Destructor

60 - 5 Dire Avengers
60 - 5 Dire Avengers
60 - 5 Dire Avengers

165 - Falcon - Shuriken Cannon, Holo Field, Spirit Stones
165 - Falcon - Shuriken Cannon, Holo Field, Spirit Stones
130 - Falcon - Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

Is this list just silly, or would it actually pack any punch? Just a fun idea, inspired by musings I've read elsewhere ...

Fun, sure....until your opponent shuts down Fortune.

I'd drop some of the falcon stones and get Runes of witnessing. You need fortune to go off no matter what.

Not sure what would kill things, you'd get bogged down by any 2+ save unit.

How would your list take down a paladin unit? or TH/SS termies? From what I can see you've only got three troops at 2k thats a little light, I usually go 1 for every 500 points

Do not field your Dire Avengers in groups of 5. They will route after only taking a few casualties and are largely useless. If you do not want a lot of troops on the field look into taking Guardian Jetbike Squadron. You can spend around the same point cost and get 3 of them flying around with a single shuriken catapult with a 3+ save and turbo boost. If you do that, the Spirit Stones can be taken away to help save some money and put it towards other things. The spear is not worth your time as you are sacrificing an attack to be able to throw it, yet you are on a Jetbike so you should be able to get into base contact with just about anything you desire. Your list is also 100% illegal as all Warlock's MUST bring something. I'm at work so I can't sit down and build the list, but off hand lets see:

Farseer - Fortune/Doom/Spirit Stones/Runes of Witnessing/Runes of Warding/Jetbike
9 Warlocks - 7 Destructor/1 Enhance/1 Embolden/Jetbikes

Farseer - Fortune/Doom/Spirit Stones/Runes of witnessing/Runes of Warding/Jetbike
9 Warlocks - 7 Destructor/1 Enhance/1 Embolden/Jetbikes

6 Guardian Jetbikes - 2 Shuriken Cannons
6 Guardian Jetbikes - 2 Shuriken Cannons

Fire Prism - Holo-Fields/Spirit Stones
Fire Prism - Holo-Fields/Spirit Stones

I personally like that list a lot. You are fully mechanized, so able to zoom around and stay away from most armies. You get a lot of fire power that can be in many places at one time. You have more survivability than the list you posted originally. You also have more probability of Fortune/Doom going off with RoWit and the abillity to shut down enemy psychers with RoWard. I think there are better lists you can run, but with dumping over 1/2 of the points into the Warlocks this is the best I could do. I would rather you run 1 deathball and than run a all around good list next to it though....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: I think mine is under 2000 but like I said I do not have the Codex in front of me. Also take your points off your list it is against forum rules. It may also be a waste to take RoWard twice with both Farseers, but I also do not imagine that the Farseers are going to live that long so maybe it would be worth your while. Just something you would have to test.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've had luck with the Warlock squad list before at 1000, but I run them a bit differently:

1 Farseer - (Fortune/Doom/Spirit Stones/Runes of Witnessing)
10 Warlocks - (8 Destructor/1 Embolden/1 Enhance)
10 Dire Avengers - (Exarch/Dual Shuriken)
10 Dire Avengers - (Exarch/Dual Shuriken)
3 War Walkers - (6 Shuriken Cannons)
1 Wave Serpent - (1 Shuriken Cannon/Star Engine)

This list has had mixed results. You have to mainly use the Warlock's to destroy someone's vehicle early on (since you get Str 9 vs them). Other than that you have good Infantry killing power. Your real issue with Warlock lists have already been brought up, which is that 2+ armor save. I would suggest at 2000 running a variation of the top list, packing dual Fire Prisms along with it, mounting every Warlock on Jetbikes. Upgrade the Walkers to better weapons, and bring an Autarch Jetbike with a PW.

His DA will be in the Falcons.

You need another HF on the 3rd Falcon and you need EML's on those Falcons. That gives you your kill power vs Paladins and Terminators.

I like the idea, but as mentioned, you are vulnerable to tarpits.

I play a the following Mechdar list and it is very effective.

Autarch
3x DAVU Falcons (EML, HF, SS)
3x Fire Dragon (5) in Wave Serpents (SCan, SS)
Dual SCan Vypers up to point limit.

Works very well from 1500 to 2000.

ArmyC wrote:His DA will be in the Falcons.

You need another HF on the 3rd Falcon and you need EML's on those Falcons. That gives you your kill power vs Paladins and Terminators.

I like the idea, but as mentioned, you are vulnerable to tarpits.

I play a the following Mechdar list and it is very effective.

Autarch
3x DAVU Falcons (EML, HF, SS)
3x Fire Dragon (5) in Wave Serpents (SCan, SS)
Dual SCan Vypers up to point limit.

Works very well from 1500 to 2000.

Where are your troop choices? Fire Dragons are not troops. Also you really have luck with EML...I have found them nothing but underwhelming. However I do love me some Starcannons, they are just so expensive!

DAVU Falcons answers the question... Dire Avengers as Vehicle Upgrades... as in 5 dire avengers in a falcon to make it a scoring unit.

dabupp wrote:Your list is also 100% illegal as all Warlock's MUST bring something.

This is incorrect. You may field "bare" warlocks; Farseers on the other hand *must* choose at least one power.

Gavin Thorne wrote:

dabupp wrote:Your list is also 100% illegal as all Warlock's MUST bring something.

This is incorrect. You may field "bare" warlocks; Farseers on the other hand *must* choose at least one power.

Nope. Page 27: "Warlock Powers: Each Warlock is a psyker and must be given a single Warlock power at the points cost listed in the army list".

Doesn't seem to be anyway around that. As well, if anyone KNOWS your bringing 3 Falcons the list should be creamed.

dabupp wrote:

Gavin Thorne wrote:

dabupp wrote:Your list is also 100% illegal as all Warlock's MUST bring something.

This is incorrect. You may field "bare" warlocks; Farseers on the other hand *must* choose at least one power.

Nope. Page 27: "Warlock Powers: Each Warlock is a psyker and must be given a single Warlock power at the points cost listed in the army list".

Doesn't seem to be anyway around that. As well, if anyone KNOWS your bringing 3 Falcons the list should be creamed.

It says "may" not "must".

No... it says must

dabupp wrote:

Nope. Page 27: "Warlock Powers: Each Warlock is a psyker and MAY be given a single Warlock power at the points cost listed in the army list".

Doesn't seem to be anyway around that. As well, if anyone KNOWS your bringing 3 Falcons the list should be creamed.

Fixed that for you. Reread the page.

chaos0xomega wrote:No... it says must

You wanna take a re-read of your codex?

On both page 27 under Warlock Powers and on page 60 under a Warlock's Options, it says 'may'.

Interesting. Mine says must on page 27 but may on page 60. Possible misprint then? Wish I had known that for all this lists I had built....

Now you know and knowing is half the battle.

dabupp wrote:Interesting. Mine says must on page 27 but may on page 60. Possible misprint then? Wish I had known that for all this lists I had built....

This... FAQ?

chaos0xomega wrote:

dabupp wrote:Interesting. Mine says must on page 27 but may on page 60. Possible misprint then? Wish I had known that for all this lists I had built....

This... FAQ?

Nope. No mention of warlock power purchasing in the FAQ.


To the OP:

Large seer councils have a problem fitting on the field because of their large footprint, especially if you're using the 60mm large flight bases that the jetbikes come with these days. The problem is not that they lack durability, but that if the unit can be targeted it can fall to small arms fire. I'd rather them be able to flit from LOS-blocking cover until close enough to assault. Also, 5 destructors seems like a lot; not all of them may be able to fire and you're better off giving a little redundancy to the powers you have. I'd drop to no more than 3 destructors per squad and run 2 enhance and 2 embolden in each squad. Also, I'd only use spears on one of each "powered" warlock - 1 destructor w/ spear, 2 w/o;1 embolden w/ spear, 1 w/o; 1 enhance w/ spear, 1 w/o; 3 no powered warlocks w/o spears. This lets you play a little with wound allocation since they're equipped a little but be aware that your opponent will probably give you the stink-eye for fielding the eldar equivalent of Nob Bikers.

More importantly, you're giving your warlocks the extra attack that they really need without sacrificing too much of your ranged anti-vehicle capability. Since warlocks wound on 2+ regardless, you'll lose effectiveness by reducing the volume of attacks you can make (or pit them against a high WS critter) and taking spears does exactly that. Remember that while it's great to pop a transport to get to the goodies inside, you might be able to pull off a multi-assault on a few vehicles or dreads simultaneously.

I love Falcon DAVU units but you lose a lot of punch by not taking warwalkers, nightspinners, or prisms. Maybe 5-man DA squads in Scatterlaser Serpents instead to free up your heavy slots for the more competitive units? My list usually runs one fortune-doom-jetseer leading a council of 7 and Eldrad paired to a DAVU in a Falcon helping to back up a pair of fire prisms. Two twin-linked large blast templates you say? And psychic defense? And deployment shenanigans? And it's scoring? And it can reroll cover saves? Yes, please!

The simplicity of your list makes it easy and quick to play, but there's not much there in terms of units. Against a skilled opponent, the lack of target saturation is going to lead to one unit after another being focused on and eliminated as a threat. Using slightly smaller councils will free up some points to pick up more units and still keep them potent. Harlequins with a Shadowseer come to mind, to move up with a council as a potent counter attack unit. They generate a volume of attacks with rending (with kisses) to add to the effectiveness of the warlocks and are maneuverable enough being able to move and run while ignoring terrain that they can keep up with the bikes most of the time.

Speaking of bikes, if you do take a unit of guardian jet bikes in place of a DAVU, go with a unit of 6 with two cannons and an embolden/spear warlock. Hide the entire unit behind LOS-blocking cover, moving just the cannon bikes no more than 6" in the movement phase, then shoot, then hop back behind cover in the assault phase. When an enemy unit gets too close to them, turbo-boost to another area of cover, wash rinse, repeat. Keep them out of combat and shooting, shooting, shooting.

My list looks like this most days:

Eldrad
Farseer - Doom, Fortune, Jetbike, Rune of Witnessing, Stones
7x Warlocks - Enhance x2, Embolden x2, Destructor x3, Spears x3
6x GJB - 2 Shuriken Cannons, Warlock w/ Embolden and Spear
6x GJB - 2 Shuriken Cannons, Warlock w/ Embolden and Spear
5x Dire Avengers
Falcon - Holofields, EML, Cannon
Fire Prism - Holofields, Cannon
Fire Prism - Holofields, Cannon

That's a little short for 2k, but I'd add Harlies, Spiders (exarch, blades, 2x deathspinners, withdraw), or Shining Spears - yes, Shining Spears - to bulk it up. Or more DA's in a Serpent, or even Guardians with a Serpent.

All that said, give your list a go. You might find it works for you, but be open minded to possibilities and remember that the Eldar thrive on synergy of units. Make sure that one unit supports another and focus your offensive capability on the immediate threat to cripple it before moving on to the next.

First of all, thankyou to all the replies, some good responses here!

Gavin Thorne wrote:
My list looks like this most days:

Eldrad
Farseer - Doom, Fortune, Jetbike, Rune of Witnessing, Stones
7x Warlocks - Enhance x2, Embolden x2, Destructor x3, Spears x3
6x GJB - 2 Shuriken Cannons, Warlock w/ Embolden and Spear
6x GJB - 2 Shuriken Cannons, Warlock w/ Embolden and Spear
5x Dire Avengers
Falcon - Holofields, EML, Cannon
Fire Prism - Holofields, Cannon
Fire Prism - Holofields, Cannon

That's a little short for 2k, but I'd add Harlies, Spiders (exarch, blades, 2x deathspinners, withdraw), or Shining Spears - yes, Shining Spears - to bulk it up. Or more DA's in a Serpent, or even Guardians with a Serpent.

All that said, give your list a go. You might find it works for you, but be open minded to possibilities and remember that the Eldar thrive on synergy of units. Make sure that one unit supports another and focus your offensive capability on the immediate threat to cripple it before moving on to the next.

Your list looks like this list, which I was working on as a more primary list to run, I'm gonna built 3 Magnetized Falcons/Fire Prisms and have fun with them

This list idea was, obviously take 2 huge Jetbike Seer Councils, destroy 1 or 2 enemy units a turn, all the while using Falcons for fire support/holding objectives, possibly reserving them if necessary. I was strongly inspired from watching Fritz's Seer Council Spam Video on Youtube. Obviously all my eggs are in one basket, & without great tactics I can completely fall apart, but I figure:

1) one squad has all Spears, lead by a Farseer with Fortune and Guide. Since the Singing Spears are assault weapons, I like the option of getting lots of strength 9 shots in the shooting phase from the unit.

edit:
2) The other Squad, with 5 Destructors, can do some serious damage, from flying the seer council in ranks and ensuring everyone fires with placement of my models. Getting lots of hits with Destructors kills even Terminators, though TH/SS termies will need more attention.

That's a strange question - with the Singing Spear council Squad, approaching a TT/SS Terminator squad, would 11 Singing Spears, rerolling to hit/wounding on a 2+ (Guide), be better than 22 Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult shots, rerolling to hit and wound (Doom)?
/edit

Gavin Thorne wrote:
Large seer councils have a problem fitting on the field because of their large footprint, especially if you're using the 60mm large flight bases that the jetbikes come with these days. The problem is not that they lack durability, but that if the unit can be targeted it can fall to small arms fire. I'd rather them be able to flit from LOS-blocking cover until close enough to assault. Also, 5 destructors seems like a lot; not all of them may be able to fire and you're better off giving a little redundancy to the powers you have. I'd drop to no more than 3 destructors per squad and run 2 enhance and 2 embolden in each squad. Also, I'd only use spears on one of each "powered" warlock - 1 destructor w/ spear, 2 w/o;1 embolden w/ spear, 1 w/o; 1 enhance w/ spear, 1 w/o; 3 no powered warlocks w/o spears. This lets you play a little with wound allocation since they're equipped a little but be aware that your opponent will probably give you the stink-eye for fielding the eldar equivalent of Nob Bikers.

I see the advantage of arming each model differently , butt I think It's a terrible Idea to give a Warlock both Destructor and a Singing Spear. I would rather plan on each Warlock having a specific task, and executing it each turn. I get the wound allocation, and will probably do more of this if I only field one Seer Council, but for two I like the dedication of roles. Playtesting may beg to differ!

ArmyC wrote:You need another HF on the 3rd Falcon and you need EML's on those Falcons. That gives you your kill power vs Paladins and Terminators.

I like the idea, but as mentioned, you are vulnerable to tarpits.

I play a the following Mechdar list and it is very effective.

Autarch
3x DAVU Falcons (EML, HF, SS)
3x Fire Dragon (5) in Wave Serpents (SCan, SS)
Dual SCan Vypers up to point limit.

I know! I was struggling with getting the points to balance out right, having an additional 38 points in my list, I dropped a Holo Field and 1 Embolden Power. I guess it isn't reliable to just run a few Embolden Warlocks and enjoy a re-roll on Psychic Tests.

Your list looks like a fun one to play. I see the advantages of Autarchs, I've just never been superbly happy running mine, maybe I was just doing it wrong.

dabupp wrote:Farseer - Fortune/Doom/Spirit Stones/Runes of Witnessing/Runes of Warding/Jetbike
9 Warlocks - 7 Destructor/1 Enhance/1 Embolden/Jetbikes

Farseer - Fortune/Doom/Spirit Stones/Runes of witnessing/Runes of Warding/Jetbike
9 Warlocks - 7 Destructor/1 Enhance/1 Embolden/Jetbikes

6 Guardian Jetbikes - 2 Shuriken Cannons
6 Guardian Jetbikes - 2 Shuriken Cannons

Fire Prism - Holo-Fields/Spirit Stones
Fire Prism - Holo-Fields/Spirit Stones

This list looks great, but is way over my points limit I wanna build to.

evildrspock wrote:edit:
2) The other Squad, with 5 Destructors, can do some serious damage, from flying the seer council in ranks and ensuring everyone fires with placement of my models. Getting lots of hits with Destructors kills even Terminators, though TH/SS termies will need more attention.

That's a strange question - with the Singing Spear council Squad, approaching a TT/SS Terminator squad, would 11 Singing Spears, rerolling to hit/wounding on a 2+ (Guide), be better than 22 Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult shots, rerolling to hit and wound (Doom)?
/edit

I can definitely see your tactic a little clearer after your explanation and it makes sense. Using your massed destructors as overkill to wipe a unit ( or almost) completely makes a lot of sense.

As far as spears vs. 'pults here's the numbers vs. MEQ's:

11 Spears hitting on 3's with re-rolls (Guide) = ~7 hits
* 7 hits wounding on 2's with re-rolls (Doom)= ~6 wounds
* 3+ saves = ~2 dead marines

22 TL Shuriken Catapults hitting on 3's with re-rolls (TL) = ~14 hits
* 14 hits wounding on 4's with re-rolls (Doom)= ~10 wounds
* 3+ saves = ~6 dead marines

So the Catapults are decisively better than spears just from the shear volume of fire they generate. If the unit you're attacking has higher than T4, the spears are likely to be a better method of attack. Additionally, you're using one less Psychic Power (Guide) meaning that you'll be able to Fortune, which you should be doing every turn that you're not turbo-boosting.

evildrspock wrote:I see the advantage of arming each model differently , butt I think It's a terrible Idea to give a Warlock both Destructor and a Singing Spear. I would rather plan on each Warlock having a specific task, and executing it each turn. I get the wound allocation, and will probably do more of this if I only field one Seer Council, but for two I like the dedication of roles. Playtesting may beg to differ!

I agree! Wound allocation tricks would be best for one unit of warlocks, not to mention cheaper. Also, I'd only ever provide the destructor a spear when running a single council where it's going to help.

I might borrow your idea here once I get more exodite models built.

evildrspock wrote:

dabupp wrote:Farseer - Fortune/Doom/Spirit Stones/Runes of Witnessing/Runes of Warding/Jetbike
9 Warlocks - 7 Destructor/1 Enhance/1 Embolden/Jetbikes

Farseer - Fortune/Doom/Spirit Stones/Runes of witnessing/Runes of Warding/Jetbike
9 Warlocks - 7 Destructor/1 Enhance/1 Embolden/Jetbikes

6 Guardian Jetbikes - 2 Shuriken Cannons
6 Guardian Jetbikes - 2 Shuriken Cannons

Fire Prism - Holo-Fields/Spirit Stones
Fire Prism - Holo-Fields/Spirit Stones

This list looks great, but is way over my points limit I wanna build to.

Aren't you building to 2000 Points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Farseer - 185
Farseer - 185
Warlock - 495
Warlock - 495
GJS - 152
GJS - 152
Fire Prism - 160
Fire Prism - 160
Total: 1984

That is how I count the list I built you. ^^

Idea being that that should give you some room to move things around, especially since the Warlock thing has come to light. Don't judge the Destructor as bad though, having that many templates when you are hitting something 3+ save will be extremely nice. A Warlock into each GJS would be nice for Embolden (reroll failed leadership).

In terms of the Warlock powers: The very early printings of Codex: Eldar had one spot where it says "must" and another that said "may". In later printings, the "must" was corrected to "may". The illegal pdf that is most widely available online (the one lacking any color pages) is from the earlier, incorrect printing.


As for the original list, here are my thoughts:

1) It's a fun list and should actually be pretty good. Don't expect to win every game, though, there's going to be some armies you just can't beat.
2) Those Farseers both NEED Runes of Witnessing! If you fail to cast Fortune (due to Runes of Warding or SitW or something else), you'll loose that squad pretty quick. Maximizing your chances of a successful cast are necessary.
3) Spread out the Destructor and the Singing Spears. You want some of each in each squad. And, you don't want to overdo the Singing Spears in a single squad. Having 11 is guaranteed to pop a vehicle (unless its AV14), so you'll want to drop that down to maximize your CC attacks.
4) I would actually consider dropping the Spirit Stones and second power from each Farseer. You don't have much shooting (that isn't already TL), so Guide isn't all that useful (you can maybe guide a Falcon per turn, but that's not great with the secondary gun being a S.Cannon). Doom could be somewhat useful for all the S.Catapult shots. But, even then you may find something better for those points.

Hmm, since it comes up a lot in this discussion of list building ... Would Embolden allow the re-roll of a psychic test if I used Runes of Witnessing? Embolden allows a re-roll of any leadership test, and a Psychic Test is a normal Leadership test ... but Runes of Witnessing changes it to 3d6, take the two lowest. I would think it does.

evildrspock wrote:Hmm, since it comes up a lot in this discussion of list building ... Would Embolden allow the re-roll of a psychic test if I used Runes of Witnessing? Embolden allows a re-roll of any leadership test, and a Psychic Test is a normal Leadership test ... but Runes of Witnessing changes it to 3d6, take the two lowest. I would think it does.

Embolden would allow you to reroll if you failed it due to leadership. That is all.

dabupp wrote:

evildrspock wrote:Hmm, since it comes up a lot in this discussion of list building ... Would Embolden allow the re-roll of a psychic test if I used Runes of Witnessing? Embolden allows a re-roll of any leadership test, and a Psychic Test is a normal Leadership test ... but Runes of Witnessing changes it to 3d6, take the two lowest. I would think it does.

Embolden would allow you to reroll if you failed it due to leadership. That is all.

Chance of Failing a Psychic Test:
Regular Psychic Test - 1/12th
Emboldened - 1/36th
Runes of Witnessing - 1/54th
Emboldened AND Runes of Witnessing - 1/108

I think my math is right, there ... that is if you can combine the powers. Clearly Runes of Witnessing allows a better chance , Embolden is the poor man's equivalent.

I would almost interpret the Runes of Witnessing as taking a Leadership test for the Psychic Test on 3d6 while discarding the highest roll, in which case you'd still get the re-roll because a Psychic Test is a Leadership test, per the BGB.

Maybe I should carry that question over to You Make Da Call?

Eldar FAQ:
Q. If a Farseer joins a unit that includes a Warlock with
the Embolden power, does he get to re-roll failed
Psychic tests? (p26)
A. Yes – the presence of the Warlock obviously helps
the Farseer to concentrate.


And, your math is off.
Chance of Failing a Psychic Test:
Regular Psychic Test - 3/36 = 1/12
Emboldened - 9/1296 = 1/144
Runes of Witnessing - 4/216 = 1/54
Emboldened and Runes of Witnessing - 16/46656 = 1/2916

So, Embolden is better than Runes of Witnessing. But, your odds go way down when you're facing Runes of Warding or SitW. That's the situation where you really want to have both.

Grakmar wrote:Eldar FAQ:
Q. If a Farseer joins a unit that includes a Warlock with
the Embolden power, does he get to re-roll failed
Psychic tests? (p26)
A. Yes – the presence of the Warlock obviously helps
the Farseer to concentrate.


And, your math is off.
Chance of Failing a Psychic Test:
Regular Psychic Test - 3/36 = 1/12
Emboldened - 9/1296 = 1/144
Runes of Witnessing - 4/216 = 1/54
Emboldened and Runes of Witnessing - 16/46656 = 1/2916

So, Embolden is better than Runes of Witnessing. But, your odds go way down when you're facing Runes of Warding or SitW. That's the situation where you really want to have both.

Ahh, so the Runes of Warding/ Runes of Witnessing Witnessing might cancel each other out when on opposite sides?

evildrspock wrote:Ahh, so the Runes of Warding/ Runes of Witnessing Witnessing might cancel each other out when on opposite sides?

In that situation, you roll 4d6 and drop the highest. The odds for that being 10 or below is more complex than I feel like doing at the moment.

Grakmar wrote:

evildrspock wrote:Ahh, so the Runes of Warding/ Runes of Witnessing Witnessing might cancel each other out when on opposite sides?

In that situation, you roll 4d6 and drop the highest. The odds for that being 10 or below is more complex than I feel like doing at the moment.

Ewww. Still, better to get an extra chance.

I love me some seer council. I have been running 5 locks with seer I keep the spear off everything except the farseer.