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So the highly sensible Space Wolves and Black Templars do not subscribe to Rowboat Girlyman's Adeptus Astartes codex birthing caps.

So who has more members? I would think that there would be more Templars, cruising about in their crusade ships, but maybe there are more space bars in the grimdark that I realize.

Templar have the most, Space Wolves probably have an above average but there isn't much saying how much they have for certain.

From what I understand its about 120-200 per great company based on the combination of bloodclaws ( largest packs), grey hunters, fangs,and wolfguard, which aren't really limited in number except by squad size... That's what I glean from the wolf fluff I read.... Logan s company is supposedly 200 as per codex

Im quite sure that the SW sit around 1400-1800, something like that. The black templar currently have over 5000 men at their disposal.

Dorn: Fething Girlyman and his stupid rules... Ill show him! SIGISMUND! GET IN HERE! THERES SOMETHING I WANNA TALK TO YOU ABOUT! heheheeh...!

Weren't the SW considered one of the smaller legions?

Considering so many of them die as bloodclaws....

Maybe pre-heresy when they still functioned as legions but now they are a bit above your average chapter when it comes to numbers.

Thatguy91 wrote:Maybe pre-heresy when they still functioned as legions but now they are a bit above your average chapter when it comes to numbers.

Yeah of course, but I'm leaning towards the templars having larger numbers...

Possibly, I got those numbers from the lexicanum so they may not be 100%. Says on there that there are 5000-6000 marines, I dont have the codex so I have no way of double checking that unfortunately.

Templars have way more than pups. The wolves got knocked around pretty hard on the Burning of Prospero, and as they were already one of the smaller legions, took some time regenerating. So whie they are larger than the Codex chapters, they never had the opportunity to grow as substantial as the Templars.

Templars have the most ! I've even read that they have problems with the imperial authorities at times because of this, can't remember where thoe.... No one knows for sure how many DT there are, except there leader

But one thing is for sure, dark templars have the most men

There is no solid number anywhere for how many BT there are but it is presumed that there are 6k+ ish.

Templars have the most men, at around 5000 Battle Brothers.
Space Wolves are probably the 2nd largest Chapter - with certainly less than Black Templars - at anywhere between 1500-3000 IIRC.
I think I remember the author of Battle of the Fang approximating around 2000 Space Wolves.

The general consensus from the SW players I discuss stuff with puts them in the 2000-2400 range. BT are far larger as they are able to recruit from a far larger number of planets where the SW only recruit from Fenris.

The Space Wolves were a small legion to start with in comparison to the other legions. Post Heresy there wasn't much to split off and form chapters from so they just said "to hell with that" and didn't.

There's no indication of how many formed the Wolf Brothers.

As for the SW legion "split" from what i gathered there was only 1 chapter based off them, and it ended in a messy FAIL. So as far as i know there are no other SW like chapters.

ANd again, only the DT Grandmaster knows there exact numbers.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Weren't the SW considered one of the smaller legions?

Small for a Legion, which is quite a bit larger than a Chapter.

resipsa wrote:From what I understand its about 120-200 per great company based on the combination of bloodclaws ( largest packs), grey hunters, fangs,and wolfguard, which aren't really limited in number except by squad size... That's what I glean from the wolf fluff I read.... Logan s company is supposedly 200 as per codex

Thatguy91 wrote:Im quite sure that the SW sit around 1400-1800, something like that. The black templar currently have over 5000 men at their disposal.

Both these are fairly accurate. Ragnar's is specifically said to be the largest this time around and is over 200 warriors. Some don't count Blood Claws but that's silly to me. If its a Space Wolf (so no pets like Fenrisian Wolves or Servitors) its a warrior. The rest are probably at least 100 strong, though I could see a small Great Company being like 80 effectives.

Logan's company also includes all the Dreadnoughts and Priests (Iron, Rune, and Wolf), so those aren't included in the numbers.

With 12 Great Companies, well there is anywhere from 1000 to 2400 Space Wolevs at any given time. A more median 1400-1800 seems to be fairly accurate.

Black Templar easily have over 5000 warriors. Their Crusades are roving so its hard to put a number on it.

Thatguy91 wrote:Dorn: Fething Girlyman and his stupid rules... Ill show him! SIGISMUND! GET IN HERE! THERES SOMETHING I WANNA TALK TO YOU ABOUT! heheheeh...!

Pretty much lol! Black Templar are my second favorite after Space Wolves for this rebellious reason.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Considering so many of them die as bloodclaws....

Casualties in game != casualties in fluff. In the Codex Blood Claws are up to 15 strong, Grey Hunters are up to 10 strong, and Long Fangs up to 6 strong. Losses aren't all causalties either:

Wolf Scouts are like minded individuals who don't play well with others and are taken from Blood Claw Packs.
Wolf Guard are taken from any packs.
Swiftclaws are formed by members seconded from Blood Claw packs.
Skyclaws are troublemakers from the Blood Claws.
Rune Priests are recruited either from the start as psykers or from any Space Wolf that begins to show signs of psychic power.
Wolf Priests are recruited from among any of the packs.
Thunderwolf Cavarly are taken from the Wolf Guard (and are off the record).

There's some conflict in the fluff as to whether or not a pack is reinforced or not. Its outright stated a few times that Packs never get reinforcements, but then some other circumstantial evidence seems to indicate that is not the case.

And there's still more Dark Angels than either, as their "successors" are just chapters within the Dark Angels.

Not exactly, no. The DA successor chapters are separate, self-contained chapters, but they (like most successor chapters) hold their parent chapter in reverence and respect.

Psienesis wrote:Not exactly, no. The DA successor chapters are separate, self-contained chapters, but they (like most successor chapters) hold their parent chapter in reverence and respect.

This...
Though the DA and their sucessor are very close they are not the same entity...

Psienesis wrote:Not exactly, no. The DA successor chapters are separate, self-contained chapters, but they (like most successor chapters) hold their parent chapter in reverence and respect.

Not correct at all. Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels runs every chapter. There are even 2 other chapters who make their home on the Rock.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Not exactly, no. The DA successor chapters are separate, self-contained chapters, but they (like most successor chapters) hold their parent chapter in reverence and respect.

Not correct at all. Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels runs every chapter. There are even 2 other chapters who make their home on the Rock.

Source on that? Last I looked, they were still separate Chapters, albeit very closely linked to each other.

Well yes, they are separate Chapters. Different names, colours titles, history, commanders.

They're linked, however, in their quest to hunt the Fallen, with the Dark Angels leading them as part of a "secret council" of sorts.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Not exactly, no. The DA successor chapters are separate, self-contained chapters, but they (like most successor chapters) hold their parent chapter in reverence and respect.

Not correct at all. Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels runs every chapter. There are even 2 other chapters who make their home on the Rock.

Source on that? Last I looked, they were still separate Chapters, albeit very closely linked to each other.

Indirectly, many sources, but that's indirect. Directly, Eye of Terror campaign materials.

They're technically seperate chapters, but the hunt for the Fallen, and keeping that secret, make their ties much tighter than any old spiritual liege would.

I'm not sure how those ties would work outside of Fallen hunting activity though. If a DA successor went rogue and had to be put down, it's likely that the other DA related chapters would come down on them much harder and faster than would happen with a BA or IH offshoot. Not that the other chapters are slackers, but the DA have a special interest in keeping their own loyal, if for no other reason than to preserve their secrets.

the templars get away with it because they are spread all over the galaxy so each crusade is almost like a succeser chapter but they all still answer to there chapter master. But here is a question wouldnt the space wolfs have tons of extra gene seed since they have no surviving succers?

Templars are about 6k maybe more it is unknown but the Wolves I don't know.

Fury_00011 wrote:the templars get away with it because they are spread all over the galaxy so each crusade is almost like a succeser chapter but they all still answer to there chapter master. But here is a question wouldnt the space wolfs have tons of extra gene seed since they have no surviving succers?

Probably not. If you guestimate that there were 20k Wolves prior to Prospero, figure 50% casualties leaves them with 10k. A bit more fighting afterwards plus the split with the Wolf Brothers could easily get them down to the 3k range. Throw in the fact that their implantation system is a tad riskier than most chapters and there's no reason to think that they've got some huge vat full of extra geneseed.

cowmonaut wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Weren't the SW considered one of the smaller legions?

Small for a Legion, which is quite a bit larger than a Chapter.

resipsa wrote:From what I understand its about 120-200 per great company based on the combination of bloodclaws ( largest packs), grey hunters, fangs,and wolfguard, which aren't really limited in number except by squad size... That's what I glean from the wolf fluff I read.... Logan s company is supposedly 200 as per codex

Thatguy91 wrote:Im quite sure that the SW sit around 1400-1800, something like that. The black templar currently have over 5000 men at their disposal.

Both these are fairly accurate. Ragnar's is specifically said to be the largest this time around and is over 200 warriors. Some don't count Blood Claws but that's silly to me. If its a Space Wolf (so no pets like Fenrisian Wolves or Servitors) its a warrior. The rest are probably at least 100 strong, though I could see a small Great Company being like 80 effectives.

Logan's company also includes all the Dreadnoughts and Priests (Iron, Rune, and Wolf), so those aren't included in the numbers.

With 12 Great Companies, well there is anywhere from 1000 to 2400 Space Wolevs at any given time. A more median 1400-1800 seems to be fairly accurate.

Black Templar easily have over 5000 warriors. Their Crusades are roving so its hard to put a number on it.

Thatguy91 wrote:Dorn: Fething Girlyman and his stupid rules... Ill show him! SIGISMUND! GET IN HERE! THERES SOMETHING I WANNA TALK TO YOU ABOUT! heheheeh...!

Pretty much lol! Black Templar are my second favorite after Space Wolves for this rebellious reason.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Considering so many of them die as bloodclaws....

Casualties in game != casualties in fluff. In the Codex Blood Claws are up to 15 strong, Grey Hunters are up to 10 strong, and Long Fangs up to 6 strong. Losses aren't all causalties either:

Wolf Scouts are like minded individuals who don't play well with others and are taken from Blood Claw Packs.
Wolf Guard are taken from any packs.
Swiftclaws are formed by members seconded from Blood Claw packs.
Skyclaws are troublemakers from the Blood Claws.
Rune Priests are recruited either from the start as psykers or from any Space Wolf that begins to show signs of psychic power.
Wolf Priests are recruited from among any of the packs.
Thunderwolf Cavarly are taken from the Wolf Guard (and are off the record).

There's some conflict in the fluff as to whether or not a pack is reinforced or not. Its outright stated a few times that Packs never get reinforcements, but then some other circumstantial evidence seems to indicate that is not the case.

The Ragnar Company is in dispute not because Blood Claws are not warriors, but his company is said to compromise of over 200 "battle-hardened" which many feels would not include Blood Claws, Sky Claws, or Bike Claws.