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This was an issue that came up the last game I played, and I'm not sure who was right. Basically, my Nobz Mob charged into some Death Company (they were down a few men, and already in combat with Killa Kans, so I figured I'd try and finish 'em off). I had charged through cover, so everything was going at Initiative 1. When everything came down to it, there were exactly enough power klaw wounds to kill all 7 of his models, plus a bunch of excess non-power wounds.

So basically, he immediately starts allocating wounds - four power klaw attacks on four models, followed by 3 armor on his others. He then stuck 3 power klaws on the guys that already had power wounds on them, so he only lost 4 models instead of all 7. Here's my question - was that a legal move? All the attacks did go at the same time, but I was under the impression that since all of his guys were outfitted the same, he just rolled the saves and took guys off as they failed, meaning that the seven klaw wounds would have done the trick and killed them all.

This is really just some post-game bitterness, since the surviving Death Company went on to kill an entire squad of Ork Boyz, thus knocking me off an objective or two.

you roll all wounds for the identical models at the same time example
5 marines
1 sargent
1 flamer

you take 8 wounds 3 are power weapon you can allocate 1 normal wound to each the sgt a normal wound, flamer normal then the other 6 on the marines, all saves for the marines are rolled at the same time meaning 2 marines are taking 3 armour saves as three died out right to power weapons. so you can stack the wounds but only if the models are different all rolls for identical models are rolled at the same time. hope that makes since lol

If all 7 models were identical, then the entire wound group suffers 7 unsaved wounds and thus would all be removed.

Locclo wrote:...but I was under the impression that since all of his guys were outfitted the same, he just rolled the saves and took guys off as they failed,

That's absolutely correct. You only allocate when there are models in the unit that are different to the rest. And even there, saves are rolled for identical groups, not for each individual model.

You got shafted.

As insaniak stated, you can only allocate when there are models whose name/wargear are different from the rest and you also only roll for identical groups.

So those DC shoulda been dust.

Of course, it might have been that he was outfitting those guys not the same (some with pistols + bolters other with chainsword + bolters). Some might be the sarg, some might have special weapons.

Next time, make sure you both are on the same page with regard to wargear on each squad.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:As insaniak stated, you can only allocate when there are models whose name/wargear are different from the rest and you also only roll for identical groups.

The Name being different is debated, as the Rules only let you differentiate if they have different rules, wargear, weapons, and characteristics.

And we come back to broken rules.... Wound allocation is broke. The ability to dodge a Power Klaw because you have a bolter and chainsword vs pistol and chainsword is silly...

You got shafted this time.....

Yeah either the guy you were playing was knowingly cheating or he just has a misunderstanding of the rules. Either way, it was illegal (assuming the DC were kitted out all the same) and you won that game. Congrats lol

DeathReaper wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:As insaniak stated, you can only allocate when there are models whose name/wargear are different from the rest and you also only roll for identical groups.

The Name being different is debated, as the Rules only let you differentiate if they have different rules, wargear, weapons, and characteristics.

It's debated because the rules say you differentiate if they have different equipment or a different "profile of characteristics", and people differ on whether the name is part of the profile. The rules also define that models form a group if they are "identical for gaming purposes. I tend to think a sergeant isn't, even if his statline is the same, because there are rules which hinge on whether a model is a sergeant or not. But as you say, opinions differ.

Bah. Well that's a bummer. At the very least, the game wound up being a draw, not a total loss - it's just that it would have been a hell of a victory if the Death Company had died outright, since all my troops would have been able to consolidate onto objectives for the last turn of the game (plus, a bunch of extra victory points for me killing them and them not killing my boyz )

And yes, they were all kitted out the same - power weapon, bolt pistol and jump pack. He had Lemartes and Dante in the squad, but neither of them was in the combat (too busy punching out a Killa Kan).

Thanks for all the help. That's a good rule to know. Does anyone have a page reference for that? (Only being able to wound allocate onto differently equipped models?)

Locclo wrote:Bah. Well that's a bummer. At the very least, the game wound up being a draw, not a total loss - it's just that it would have been a hell of a victory if the Death Company had died outright, since all my troops would have been able to consolidate onto objectives for the last turn of the game (plus, a bunch of extra victory points for me killing them and them not killing my boyz )

And yes, they were all kitted out the same - power weapon, bolt pistol and jump pack. He had Lemartes and Dante in the squad, but neither of them was in the combat (too busy punching out a Killa Kan).

Thanks for all the help. That's a good rule to know. Does anyone have a page reference for that? (Only being able to wound allocate onto differently equipped models?)

Page 25 'Complex Units'

Also if 'He had Lemartes and Dante in the squad' then your guys would have had to kill them as well, before you got to consolidate away.

Lemartes is not an IC and he is equipped differently so you must roll for his specific wounds separately. (He is a part of the squad and you must distribute wounds evenly amongst the squad in CC, he is not an IC so he can not be singled out, and you must give him a wound before any model in the unit, Excluding IC's, get a second wound.

What is the toughness of DC's? I figured power claws would cause instant death wounds, which I thought cannot be reallocated on top of one another. Meaning every model takes 1 insta death wound before the same group gets another allocated to it?

Aipoch wrote:What is the toughness of DC's? I figured power claws would cause instant death wounds, which I thought cannot be reallocated on top of one another. Meaning every model takes 1 insta death wound before the same group gets another allocated to it?

DC's Toughness is the same as every other rank and file marine.

But you do not allocate wounds that way, you allocate 1 per model, then once every model has one you may allocate a second wound to any given model. The wound allocation rules do not care what type of wounds you put on the models as long as you distribute all wounds evenly.

NEVERMIND me. I am being stupid. That is correct. ID or not, players get to choose how the wounds are allocated before taking saves.

leohart wrote:Actually, it does for Instant Death wound. ID wound cannot be stacked and cannot be used on wounded models if there is another model in that wound group which is whole.

That applies to removing casualties, not to wound allocation.

Wound allocation does not care at all about the strength of the wounds, the AP of the wounds, or any other characteristics that may alter casualty removal.

The only thing that wound allocation cares about is that the number of wounds are allocated evenly.

ID wound can be stacked to a single model, and if that model has a different statline, or is equipped differently, or has different rules or wargear, then you can roll his saves separately.

E.G. Situation: 5 marines, 3 with bolters, 1 with flamer, and 1 with BP and CCW(Sergeant)

you take 3 meltagun wounds and 8 lasgun wounds from a IG unit.
M will be a melta wound, L will be Lasgun wounds here is how you can distribute

Bolter: L
Bolter: L
Bolter: L
Flamer: M
Sarge: L

Now that you have 1 wound on each marine you can distribute the remaining wounds to already wounded models, but each model must be allocated a 2nd wound before taking a third:

Bolter: L L
Bolter: L L
Bolter: L L
Flamer: M M
Sarge: L L

Now you put the last wound (M) anywhere you want to, since all models have 2 wounds stacked on them.

So you put it on the Flamer.

Bolter: L L
Bolter: L L
Bolter: L L
Flamer: M M M
Sarge: L L

So in our example the Bolter marines would take 6 saves removing a model for each failed save, the Sarge takes 2 saves and dies if he fails either one (As normal Sgt's only have 1 wound on their profile) then the Flamer guy dies as his wounds can not be saved by his armor (And we assume he is not in cover because the situation does not mention cover).

@insaniak @DeathReaper: hats off to you gentlemen, while I am writing my updates, you ninja-ed in and showed me the light.

Thank you.

it really comes down to the weapons the unit has. I'm not sure about the DC but for the sake of argument lets say they have 2 different types of weapons.

There are 4 models with gun A
and 3 models with gun B

(pg 25 is your friend)
Now lets say you take 7 PK wounds causing ID, and just 3 normal wounds. You start by allocating 4 ID wounds to group A, 3 normal wounds to group B, then with the 3 remaining ID wounds you assign them to group A again.

Both groups take saves, and lets say group B makes all their saves. No wounds taken.

Now group A fails all of their saves, so they lose all 4 models with the 3 remaining wounds having no affect as they won't go to a different group. Those 3 wounds are also not counted towards CC resolution (pg 39).

Locclo wrote: I had charged through cover, so everything was going at Initiative 1.

For the record, your initiative is not reduced if the target was already engaged in close combat.

Page 36, "Assaulting through Cover", last paragraph - if the enemy units are engaged in close combat the previous turn then the penalty does not apply. I am sure it would not have mattered but this is commonly over looked.

Shawn, just shoot out the question next time, I was only 2 tables over and as a fellow Ork, I would have argued with you, especially against DC!