Chaos Alliances

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Viridian**

I had this idea the other night after reading a post on here. The issue is why does Khorne dislike Slaanesh over Tzeentch so much? I ask this simply because it doesn't make sense to me anymore. The only thing I can find to support the dislike is Slaanesh likes tactful dramatic displays in combat vs the pandemonium Khorne wants. One could say looking good vs barbarism appeal as well. Though that still doesn’t come together for me well. Mostly because Tzeentch is the problem. Why is it that Khorne puts Slaanesh on the other side of the table rather then Tzeentch . Yes on Lex Khorne dislikes both Tzeentch and Slaanesh for different reasons. Though I find Tzeentch to be more solid caster vs warrior. Ancient grudge longer then time. I have a serious dilemma with a sentence on Lex...

Slaanesh, considered a weakling without martial pride or honour, incurs most of Khorne's hatred.

Weakling, yes Slaanesh is the last major chaos god to be born so you dislike your younger brother/sister or both depending on Slaanesh mood, they also rely heavily on speed over power. Still though not a really solid support for hatred other then opinion. Without Martial Pride or Honor. I find that really lacking considering how the Emperors Children were founded on such ideas along with perfecting battle tactic's and glowing in such ideals. I would say Fulgrim the novel is a decent appeal to showing off martial pride and honor. In the novel Damon World the hatred is more of an opinion there really is nothing there other then its an old hatred go with it? A pretty city is attacked by a huge bronze demon prince.
I'm just looking for better answers basically to why Khorne dislikes Slaanesh more so then Tzeentch? I mean the god supports casters for crying out loud I would think that would be a higher priority for hatred then weakling, considering the ancient warrior vs caster grudge. Lucius at the moment takes part in gladiatorial games which also sounds like whom would enjoy?
So my mind is trying to find reasons of why Slaanesh is on the opposing end of the board rather then Tzeentch. Too me it just seems more rational for Tzeentch and Khorne to hate each other implicitly and Slaanesh and Nurgle to hate each other Implicitly. I mean in the end Nurgle still holds Isha, I would think that would make Slaanesh unhappy. Nurgle has a knack for being slow and tough which counters speed and frailty. I'm trying to justify the opposition that currently is between the 4 major chaos gods then one that seems more rational in my mind at the moment.

-Sincerely Viridian

**GreatGunz**

I guess that's just the way they set it up. Khorne is brutal and primitive. Slaanesh is refined and decadant. They embody opposite kinds of human derangement, so they're antagonistic for that reason. Tzeentch is about ambition and creation, where Nurgle is about despair and ruin, so their ideals are more closely opposite than Tzeentch and Khorne. Though Khorne and Tzeentch have their differences, they're basically more preoccupied with their polar opposite enemies than with each other. That's as best as I understand it.

**blazinpsycho&typhooni**

From what I understand... everyone hates everyone, it's just the level of hatred that defines the grouping.

Does Khorne hates sorcerers? yes
But he also hates slaanesh and his spawns because instead of killing out right, they'd rather let their victims suffer to prolong the pleasure derived from it.

**Viridian**

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:But he also hates slaanesh and his spawns because instead of killing out right, they'd rather let their victims suffer to prolong the pleasure derived from it.

This is the quote I've had in my mind a long time now, I understand the quote. The pleasure of basking in victory, The pleasure of being perfect in combat against a dueling opponent. But I don't see how one couldn't slay 10 people out right in some dramatic way to create such a stunning display of ... whatever you want to call it... Define it as art and some how link it between Slaanesh and Khorne. Slaanesh strengths his/her supporters with initiative qualities or speed which can kill in away fast on table top. I mean I understand your point its almost the social reason why they don't get along but what about my idea of 10 vs 1 dramatic scene, why isn't that possible? Like the below...

GreatGunz wrote:they're basically more preoccupied with their polar opposite

I mean isn't a polar opposite defining in a sorcerer vs brute warrior aspect? Which is what I'm eating at, I know there enemies but they don't seem polar in there differences. I guess that's my problem how do you define past that mage vs warrior thing to me. The only thing I can see is pandemonium vs tactful combative displays I guess. Beauty vs Beast kind of aspects. But those are rather minor wouldn't you say? I guess to some extent being born from a psyker race would be an issue. That being Slaanesh but I just feel like Khorne is pointing his finger saying I hate your art decor taste.... and that's it? It's just annoying me its not very defined to me, not as defined as the whole sorcerer vs brute warrior thing.

GreatGunz wrote:Khorne is brutal and primitive. Slaanesh is refined and decadant.

Yeah that makes sense its really the only thing that makes sense too me now. It's like the whole pretty city vs primitive nature sort of thing. I guess I just got too use to Khorne with that aspect I never thought of it that way. It would be a subtle polar opposite, but it would definitely be an extreme difference. I don't know it just has my feelings on why they hate each other so much that Tzeentch sinks from the lime light with his difference to Khorne strange. If you take the two novels there is one aspect in both that's subtle. Both have some kind of art quality to them. Slaanesh is defined as a weakling by Khorne, I buy this yes to an extent of... I guess social display power vs grace? I find Slaanesh focuses on expression I guess, weather its art, fighting, collecting. I mean in Deamon World its about Lady Charadia(Something like this) collecting skulls and refining them into a wall. She even collecting Elder skulls. Which I find interestingly linked to Khorne in away when I read it seemed almost blasphemous to me. The city does have its refined decadent as Gunz would say, but it is an interesting read on the two.
In Fulgrim its painting and sculpting, Serena with painting and Fulgrim with his sculpting. The art itself becomes degraded Fulgrim seeks perfection with his sculpting and so does Serena but it just becomes uglier to both, symbolizing there personality warping in away I guess. Perhaps one could say that Khorne dislikes this sense of civility? I'll think on it some more but thank you for your answer's guys better then nothing. I'm seriously not wanting a mid chaos philosophy life crisis.

-Sincerely Viri

**JBrehaut**

What you're saying makes sense to me.
Tzeentch and Khorne have very obvious differences.

Now one reason may simply be that, in order to work, the hateds have to work so that every one god, has a problem with the opposing god, otherwise none would get along.
However, Slaanesh and Nurgle having an intense dislike towards each other makes perfect sense.
Slaanesh would look down on Nurgle as being filthy, raw, unelegant and disgusting, whereas Nurgle would see Slaanesh as a 'pretty boy(girl)',...

**English Assassin**

The dichotomies make a great deal more sense if you read the Realm of Chaos books: Khorne embodies martial discipline and anger, Slaanesh subaritic luxury and the desire to enjoy. Likewise Nurgle embodies despair and decay, whereas Tzeentch represents hope and change.

Frankly, that's a great deal more interesting and subtle than the juxtaposition of "Khorne hates magic, Tzeentch likes magic", and "Nurgle ugly, Slaanesh pretty" you're proposing.

**Iracundus**

The canonical reason is given in the original Realms of Chaos, which is quoted below:

Legions of Khorne

Excellence in battle is the highest form of worship for all of Khorne's followers. To fight in one of his Daemonic Legions is an honour to which all his servants aspire. Those rewarded by this privilege treat the occasion with the utmost gravity. Death is a serious business, and death in a Legion doubly so, for are not the eyes of Khorne always upon his most trusted servants? That Slaaneshi followers should treat warfare, the most sincere form of Khorne-worship, as just another pleasurable experience is infuriating. Battle in all its forms is a sacred ritual to Khorne's servants. Before each battle a ritual dedicates the blood fo the slain, enemies and friends alike, to the Blood God

A Daemon Legion of Khorne is a fearsome and terrible sight. Its troops are dressed quite literally, to kill, adorned in Khorne's hues of red and black, the colours of blood and death. Their appearance is strictly that of soldiers, for only if they are unencumbered by frippery can they kill properly in Khorne's name. His Legionnaires carry this to extremes, with almost identical armour of red, black, and brass. Their expressions of deadly and murderous intent are broken only when they kill, as they smile grimly at sending another gift of blood to their dark lord.

-p. 182, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness

Legions of Slaanesh

Slaanesh and his servants indulge in war: it is yet another pleasure to be sampled, not a serious business or test of strength. War is simply a game, part of the greater ritual, and Slaanesh is always the first to insist upon elaborate conditions and rituals before the Legions give battle.

The followers of Slaanesh seek gratification of the senses in all things. Battle is merely another method of finding a new warped pleasure. For Slaanesh's servants the thrills of battle are there to be joyfully experienced and repeated. Slaaneshi Daemons and mortal warriors delight in causing pain and killing; their wanton slaughter is spurred to greater heights by the pleasure they find in bloodshed.

The Slaaneshi attitude to battle and death is reflected in the Legion's appearance. Its troops parade in frivolous colours and clashing patterns, fantastic jewels and flamboyant costumes. The whole impression is that of a costume ball or masque rather than one of battle. The demeanour of a Slaaneshi Legion is equally perverse. Its Daemons and warriors shriek obscene jokes to each other, disport themselves with the dead and laugh with pleasure even as their own lives are taken. Any sensation, is after all, to be experienced and enjoyed. To express horror is a dreadful failing, one that is sure to be punished by the Lord of Pleasure.

-p. 185, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness

**Viridian**

JBrehaut wrote:What you're saying makes sense to me.

I'm glad it made sense, cause writing it felt very foggy to be honest. I did try and make it as easily understandable as possible without making it as complex in my head as it is.

English Assassin wrote:Frankly, that's a great deal more interesting and subtle than the juxtaposition of...

Not very nice Assassin, especially if you think of what information was in your own post. In my post I did at a point, want to make things simple. I think Jbrehaut meant to do the same in his own post. I'm trying to find a simple polar difference that is equal too or better then the mage vs warrior appeal that would prove out to make Slaanesh a greater polar enemy then Tzeentch.

The whole impression is that of a costume ball or masque rather than one of battle. The demeanour of a Slaaneshi Legion is equally perverse. Its Daemons and warriors shriek obscene jokes to each other, disport themselves with the dead and laugh with pleasure even as their own lives are taken. Any sensation, is after all, to be experienced and enjoyed. To express horror is a dreadful failing, one that is sure to be punished by the Lord of Pleasure.

-p. 185, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness

This line interests me, mostly because it doesn't deal with any of the units we play with. I mean Emperors Children, an ex-space marine uniformed army goes rogue(Granted 2nd Ed. Noise Marines did look fairly clown like but this has changed I would say. So It's hard to say if this is good information). Dresses in black and pink, Still uniformed just looks evil. Demons with Mark of Slaanesh mostly all fleshy creatures with.... For the most part in common they have the right breast covered left not?(Or is it the other way around?). Crab like claws are fairly common or ophidion traits. I guess my point is reading this just tells me about some crazy bushmen worshiping Slaanesh(Granted these types of character's are in Demon World but not marines of course. They wore vibrantly colored silks for the most part with some primitive plate at times). Sure when I read it I can see Khorne takes combat serious, Slaanesh has fun with it. If that's so then what do the Emperors Children do in combat, most of what I read in Fulgrim was fairly uniformed, arrogantly approached and most wanted duels in behavior I would say. Given, this was during the heresy.
People always want to define the difference between Khorne and Slaanesh by there battle difference's, which I find interesting. If we only do that then we stick to the whole warrior vs mage fiasco(That being Khorne vs Tzeentch) and trying to prove out Slaanesh is a greater polar enemy in combat because they dress funny. They kill with speed but at a tormenting passe'. I still think those are pretty minor next to a polarizing, I just shot a Bolt of Change at you while you scream bloody murder running at me with a huge two-handed weapon.

-Sincerely Viri

**LoneLictor**

English Assassin wrote:The dichotomies make a great deal more sense if you read the Realm of Chaos books: Khorne embodies martial discipline and anger, Slaanesh subaritic luxury and the desire to enjoy. Likewise Nurgle embodies despair and decay, whereas Tzeentch represents hope and change.

Frankly, that's a great deal more interesting and subtle than the juxtaposition of "Khorne hates magic, Tzeentch likes magic", and "Nurgle ugly, Slaanesh pretty" you're proposing.

Yeah, I agree with this and there isn't really much I can add to it.

**Arturius**

Slaanesh experiences, and anything done is to initiate or enhance an experience.

Khorne acts, and perception is barely something to be consciously aware of.

**nomsheep**

Weren't the two of them played against each other by tzeentch somewhere in the background?

nom

**Raulmichile**

nomsheep wrote:Weren't the two of them played against each other by tzeentch somewhere in the background?

nom

Yep, it happens very frequently

**GentlemanGuy**

Raulmichile wrote:
nomsheep wrote:Weren't the two of them played against each other by tzeentch somewhere in the background?

nom

Yep, it happens very frequently

It's a typical sunday afternoon for Tzeentch.

**Macok**

I've always pictured it something like this:
If you are a painter, a very specific kind of painter (only three colours, very sharp lines) who are you going to hate?
A jazz musician or painter who uses very intensive, blurry colours? Chaos gods are, among other, megalomaniac to the max. The things they will hate more than other are similar to their 'field of expertise'. Different, but stepping on their domain.

**Manchu**

There is a short story called the Wrath of Kharn that shows how Slaanesh and Khorne are opposed quite nicely.

**Durza**

I imagine that it's simply because it's easier than explaining why Slaanesh would hate Nurgle (though I guess a live fast, die young mentality vs desire for immortality despite the decay could work.) Anyway, here's my take on it:

Slaanesh was created by the decadence of the Eldar race at the height of their civilisation when they were unopposed as the most powerful race in the galaxy. Hence, at it's core, Slaanesh is a god of civilisation falling into barbarity. On the other hand, Khorne was created by the clash of arms of primitive civilisations forging their own empires, making it a god of barbarity approaching civilisation.

They are the extreme ends of the cycle, Slaanesh being the start of the fall and Khorne being the beginning of the rise. Slaanesh hates Khorne for embodying what civilisation once was and what it will be again thanks to Slaanesh itself, and Khorne hates Slaanesh for the weakness and selfishness of civilisation compared to the martial strength and honour that Khorne embodies.

Of course, that's just me. YMMV.

**Psienesis**

It just so happens that I was looking up some fun, nifty things to unleash on my Dark Heresy party via a Sorcerer Champion of Tzeentch, so I was browsing through The Lost & The Damned.

Tzeentch represents (amongst other things) hope and ambition, the desire for change, and revolution.

Nurgle, his counter, represents defiance, endurance, resistance and pragmatic fatalism.

Khorne is a martial god who is worshiped on the field of battle, where the drawing of blades or arming of weapons is, itself, a precursor to the ritual of bloodletting and carnage, where every stroke of the sword or firing of a gun is hymn sung in his honor.

Slaanesh sees battle as just another party, an excuse to cut loose and go wild, and experience every sensation as if it were the most sublime of pleasures, and revel in the bloodshed and carnage, to sup of them as if they were the finest of ambrosia and nectar. Battle is no serious affair, simply an orgiastic slaughter.