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Comments/criticism please on this list. This list is intended for use at a tournament, so it's (supposed to be) an all-rounder, but also something out of the ordinary. I intend to go full reserves/null depoloyment with Al'Rahem and the scout sentinels outflanking, marbo and the storm troopers deep-striking. With Al'Rahem's platoon, my idea is that the SWS will take the one chimera since the PIS would be "blobbed".

HQ

CCS - 3x melta, Astropath, chimera - 165

ELITE

5x Storm Troopers, 2x melta - 105

Marbo - 65

TROOPS

1st Platoon
PCS - 3x flamer
PIS - PW sgt, commissar
PIS - PW sgt
200

2nd Platoon
PCS - Al'Rahem, 4x melta, chimera
PIS - melta, commissar w/ power weapon
PIS - melta, chimera
SWS - 3x melta
480

FAST

10x Rough Riders - 105
2x Scout Sentinel w/ autocannon - 80

HEAVY

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 150
Leman Russ Battle Tank - 150

TOTAL = 1500

I really tried to cut to the bone in terms of trimming fat. I think I'm getting very close to being happy with this, but am wondering if I haven't gone a bit overboard with the meltaguns in Al-Rahem's platoon? I was going to try to squeeze a second SWS with 3x flamers in there but don't see anywhere left to trim fat in order to find 50 pts (or 105 if I wanted them to have a chimera). I know tournaments have LOTS of vehicles based on the batreps I've seen, but wonder if I'm not lacking some horde-killing ability due to too much emphasis on the AT?

Already looks good, so just got some minor changes that would optimize it.

1st Platoon -
PCS needs another flamer and a chimera, blob needs meltaguns, commissar wants a sword,
= +90

2nd Platoon -
Sergeants want swords, blob can downgrade to flamers to be very anti-infantry, Al'Rahem is probably happy with 3x melta as he has orders
= +0

All chimeras are multilaser + heavy flamer, right?

The easiest way to get the pts is to drop the sentinels. Sentinels are cool and add some options, but in your list, you have so much alternative deployment already, so the value of the sentinels is diminished. Dropping them gives you 80pts. To get the last 10pts, you can drop a roughrider. You won't feel the difference between 9 and 10 of them.


With this list, you can actually start with the russes and also possibly the 1st platoon blob on the table against many lists. AV14 is very resilient to long range fire, especially with cover. Consider using them as bait, pulling your enemy into range of your incoming reserves and away from you objectives. If you have an objective in the left corner, consider placing the russes in the other corner (but also consider firelanes and cover) to drag your opponent away from the objective.

The blob is valuable in reserve, but not against all lists. Look at the opponent and mission before you decide what to reserve and not.

Objective placement is important with this list. Place them along the egde of the table at every opportunity, and make sure you will get to them whatever egde you get. This would most often mean that you place them 12"/12" from opposite corners. You want the enemy to fight near the edges of the table, where you can catch him with your short range firepower.

You don't have the firepower to knock out the enemy army, so work towards the mission goals with your force concentration and movement.

Ok, thanks again for your help.

It really really hurt to take the sentinels out, because I love them, and with them I would have had the "trifecta" of much-maligned IG units in my list (storm troopers, rough riders, sentinels) but upon much deliberation, I realize you're right. Without a chimera my PCS always gets killed before it can do anything so I think that's an appropriate apportionment of points.

The only other option might be to can Marbo and another rough rider to get the sentinels back, but Marbo seems pretty useful especially if I can time his arrival right with the storm troopers. What are your thoughts on that?

I would drop your trifecta of storm troopers, rough riders and sentinels. If you are going null deployment you need units with staying power. Not cheap, free kill points. Marbo is amazing, always use him. I have a friend running a similar list but he has 2 x Vendettas and 2 x Manticores in it @ 1500.

Put your PCS in a chimera and have them run with the CCS, and have the PIS x 2 bubble wrapping your heavy support.

Your second platoon looks like it's half in chimeras, half out. You really want them all to be in chimeras to be able to outflank and hit a target with meltas, or allow the chimera's flamers to roll over some infantry. I suggest cutting the second platoon to:
PCS - Al'Rahem, 4x melta, chimera
PIS - melta, chimera
PIS - melta, chimera

Corner 1) Manticores covered by the PIS x 2 from the first platoon in cover acting as bait.
Corner 2) Outflankers to take out campers
Corner 3) Vendettas on the opposite side of the outflankers
Corner 4) CCS + PCS in chimeras on the opposite side of the Manticores
Other) Marbo drops in where needed.

You're trying to limit your opponent's targets by making them choose a direction to face before they fire a shot (most weapons have a 90 deg arc). This way if they have to commit X of their Y weapons to face in a certain direction, thus over or under committing their firepower in one of 4 directions giving you a statistical advantage to survive. The way your list is set up currently, you are giving them too many easy targets.

Ashenhugar -- thanks for your comments. I appreciate your assistance, although I should have mentioned that for a variety of reasons I refuse to use manticores or vendettas in my army. Also, storm troopers and rough riders, aside from being my favourite models, have been pure gold for me in every battle I;ve used them so ...

My original list had the Al'Rahem platoon as you described it, but I switched to the mixed unit you see now based on suggestions from others.

I like playing an out-of-the-ordinary list.

How common is Marbo?

I'm seeing him in a lot of batreps, so I am now considering swapping him for the two sentinels (surely I can find the extra 15 points somewhere).

Marbo is the glue that will hold your monstrosity together. He doesn't scatter, he just appears where needed, and drops his bomb destroying whatever heavy support your opponent has clustered, or on a large unit of flesh outside of cover. He's so cheap for what he does, the only negative thing I can think of is he's another kill point, which shouldn't really phase you.

To be honest, the way you are running this list you should drop all armor and run a pure footslogger with Creed. That way you have staying power and aren't running a hybrid that honestly looks weaker. I'll see if I can put a list together that better describes what I'm talking about.

Is it still threadomancy if you do it with your own thread?

So anyway, I was quite happy with the list I had above after taking into account Illumini's great suggestions. Never made it to the tournament I was planning for due to my slow painting and some unexpected real-world family issues.

And now 6th edition is here and I'm planning WAY ahead for next year's Astronomi-con and trying to turn the above list into something useable in the new edition. The major change that needs to be made, as I see it, is to address flyers. So here are a couple "new looks" I'd appreciate your opinions on (NB that the core of the 1st Platoon, Storm Troopers, Rough Riders, and Leman Russes are pretty much set since they are all that's painted!).

So ...

New Look #1

HQ

CCS - Power Weapon, Melta x2, Flamer x2, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, Chimera - 205

ELITE

Storm Troopers (5), melta x2 - 105

TROOPS

1st Platoon
PCS - 3x flamer
PIS - PW, meltagun, commissar w/ PW
PIS - PW, meltagun
230

2nd Platoon
PCS - Al'Rahem, 3x melta, Chimera w/ Multilaser, hull Hvy Flamer
PIS - flamer, chimera w/ Multilaser, hull Hvy Flamer
PIS - flamer Chimera w/ Multilaser, hull Hvy Flamer
405

FAST ATTACK

10x Rough Riders - 105

HEAVY

Leman Russ Battle Tank, hull heavy flamer - 150
Basilisk, hull heavy flamer - 125
Hyrda - 75

FORTIFICATIONS

Aegis Defence Line w/ Icarus Lascannon - 85

TOTAL = 1485

... leaving 15 points left over. Could give the Platoon commander for 1st platoon a power sword and meltabombs somewhere for fluff purposes. My logic behind this list was to fit in the Aegis, the Hydra, and the OotF (which combined seem the bare minimum I can come up with for AAA) I had to tone-down Al'Rahem's platoon, turn one Russ into a Basilisk, and remove Marbo. The other option is to scrap Al'Rahem, which I'm not crazy about since I love the idea of an outflanking mech platoon. BUT, it is a lot easier to craft a list that doesn't include Al'Rahem (but then I'm spending a lot less on troops, so maybe it's not so great).

New Look #2

HQ

CCS - Lascannon, Master of Ordinance, Officer of the Fleet, Chimera - 185

ELITE

Storm Troopers (5), melta x2 - 105

Marbo - 65

TROOPS

Platoon
PCS - 3x flamer, Chimera w/ Multilaser, hull heavy flamer
PIS - PW, meltagun, commissar w/ PW
PIS - PW, meltagun
285

Veteran Squad - Grenadiers, melta x2, Heavy Flamer x1, power weapon, Chimera w/ Multilaser, hull heavy flamer - 205

Penal Legion - 80

FAST ATTACK

10x Rough Riders - 105

HEAVY

Leman Russ Battle Tank, hull heavy flamer - 150
Leman Russ Battle Tank, hull heavy flamer - 150
Hyrda - 75

FORTIFICATIONS

Aegis Defence Line w/ Icarus Lascannon - 85

TOTAL = 1490

Going for a more static feel with this one since I don't have Al'Rahem, thus making the CCS more of a stand-and-shoot layout, with the vets and RRs for counterattack. I threw in the Penal Legion so I can still do a bit of outflanking, and because it's another rare unit that I have fully painted, and with some fun conversions and a fluffy storyline that ties them into my army nicely. So this would help me max out my "soft score" points for this tournament where 40/180 total points go for your army list and appearance. Plus I felt that I NEEDED more troops in this list and with only 90 points to play with, couldn't do too much. My major issue with this list is that it may not be as mobile as I like.

Bottom line, I am not happy about having to pay a 200 point AAA tax, but I see no way around it after reading some batreps and seeing what happens if you have NO AAA whatsoever. Seems to me that if I've got at least this minimal amount I can stay competitive.

... and no, I'm not going to take a Vendetta/Valkyrie. Although I think I could fit it into my fluff as an inquisitiorial valk (the storm troopers are inquisitorial STs, and "Marbo" is an inquisitor, or in New Look #1 the CCS is an inquisitor and henchmen) BUT (a) I have way too many unpainted minis already to justify the purchase, and (b) I will be travelling out of town for this tournament and don't want the headache of trying to transport a big flyer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. -- the reason for the power sword on the veteran sergeant is that I modelled him to do double duty as a counts-as Sgt. Bastonne. So I'm kind of stuck with a PW due to WYSIWYG.

Null deployment certainly took a hit with 6th ed, but with some changes, I believe it can work very well.

I would split the roughriders into 2x5 men with 2xmelta and a meltabomb in each, now that they can move 12" and shoot, they are great tank hunters. I believe they now also gain extra attacks from having two close combat weapons, so they retain quite a lot of punching power with 10 S5/I5 attacks, making those units capable of taking out tanks AND smashing small marine squads. Roughriders are quite awesome now IMO, if they didn't compete with flyers, I would bring as many such units as possible every time. This load-out keeps them effective when kept in reserve as well.

I would think long and hard on your no vendetta rule. Fighting airpower with none of your own can be a very frustrating affair. Interceptor guns is pretty much the only real alternative IMO, and then you have to resort to forgeworld options to get more than one. Hydras are very likely to be taken out before they shoot if they are your only AA. Bringing one "inquisitoral" vendetta gives you something to fight back with. One isn't that hard to bring along either.

Will comment more later.

I think it's a pretty decent list. I'd like to see some heavy weapons in the infantry squads, especially if they're not out flanking. It'll dramatically increase their effectiveness.

The Hydra won't last. If it had interceptor I think you could justify it's points cost, but the way it is, it's 75 points that's going to be blown off the board.

The Rough Riders make me uneasy. Any opponent will take bolter or equivalent pot shots and mangle them to where they'll be useless.

@Illumini -- thanks for your initial thoughts, and I am certainly looking forward to your further comments later.

What you have written about Rough Riders is music to my ears, since I love the models and the whole reason I bought DKoK models was for their roughriders. Now that I think of it, they have a larger melta threat range than SWS or vets in chimera with meltas since they can move 12 and fire at full BS (plus even charge after that).

I am a bit uneasy about a single Vendetta, because it seems to me that it will suffer the same fate as a Hydra per Griddlelol's comments, especially since most everyone will have at least an Aegis with Icarus or Quad. So it would probably just get blown away when it first shows, or, thanks to my Astropath/Officer of the Fleet combo get wasted by the alphastrike of the late arriving enemy flyers.

@Griddlelol -- Thanks for your comments. Do you prefer one list over another?

Re: the Hydra, you are correct, I just don't know what else I can add that contributes to my army's AA capabilities. The tournament I am building this list towards allows Forgeworld, so is there something in the 75 pt range from there that has interceptor and skyfire? Or do you recommend I just use the points for something else entirely?

As for the Rough Riders, I hear you, and it makes me a bit uneasy as well, especially since I can no longer hide them in reserve then launch an 19-24" (move 6", run 1-6", charge 12") assault when they show up as I used to be able to do in 5th edition.

HOWEVER, I love the models too much and as mentioned above the army was practically built around them so I feel that I must bring at least one unit of them. Also, I believe Illumini has enunciated a new use for them -- showing up from reserve and melta'ing anything within 18". So ignore that part of my lists

You're correct about 1 Vendetta. I'd avoid it.

To me the main difference between the two lists is Al'rahem. I've never had the pleasure of using him so I can't really comment.

I've never used any Forge World units, but I come across them regularly. The Sabre Weapons Battery seems pretty decent. Skyfire and interceptor, TW lascannon, AC, HB. I might have convinced myself to get them!
There are also variants of manticores which don't seem that great.

The rough riders might work like that! Give it a go, and if they do please shout about it in the tactics section. I'd love to use RRs again.

Thanks again.

I forgot to mention, good point about the non-outflanking platoon. I was thinking of giving them autocannons (maybe swap-out the power weapons for the ACs to keep points down?).

Will definitely let you know how the RRs work out. Just maybe not too soon. I paint slow and don't get too many opportunities to play given 4 children under age 6 and the fact my one good friend who plays 40K moved away. The tournament I'm planning for is about 8 months away -- and it will probably take that long to get everything painted up. I will definitely try to playtest some of this before that and will post my results.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I've never used any Forge World units, but I come across them regularly. The Sabre Weapons Battery seems pretty decent. Skyfire and interceptor, TW lascannon, AC, HB. I might have convinced myself to get them!

There are also variants of manticores which don't seem that great.

The Manticore platforms from IA Apoc 2 are amazing.

The Cyclops RC Demo Vehicles from IA 1 are also a huge amount of fun. Basically 25 points for a self propelled Demo Charge

foolishmortal wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I've never used any Forge World units, but I come across them regularly. The Sabre Weapons Battery seems pretty decent. Skyfire and interceptor, TW lascannon, AC, HB. I might have convinced myself to get them!

There are also variants of manticores which don't seem that great.

The Manticore platforms from IA Apoc 2 are amazing.

The Cyclops RC Demo Vehicles from IA 1 are also a huge amount of fun. Basically 25 points for a self propelled Demo Charge

Really? I've never used them, I just glanced at IA aereonautica. How do they perform? I see they're not interceptor, how does this affect their viability? Sorry to derail the threat, but this has got me interested. If you want you can just send me a PM foolishmortal.

meh, whenever I have an army help thread, I love when people keep posting on it. More likely to get attention longer/from different people.

The Manticore Platforms are great.

1) they are squadron-able, up to 3
2) they are immobile, but cheaper than standard Manticores
3) you have a choice of 3 types of ammo

Here is the link to FW's last 5th ed update for them. I hear IA 1 is being reprinted by FW in the near future with 6th ed rules.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA1update28AUG.pdf

Also, the quickie 6th Ed update put out by FW
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

Actually, I noticed something odd on it. It looks like the Hydra platforms got Skyfire and Interceptor. If I'm reading this right, I might need to knock the tracks off a few of my hydras and kit up some bases

Have to say it makes NO sense that a Hydra platform has skyfire and interceptor, but the Hydra tank does not. Actually, the Hydra platform is the only thing I'm seeing on that PDF that has skyfire and interceptor. Might have to go with that instead of the Hydra tank I had in the list.

I don't have any Imperial Armour books, but I understand that the platforms are AV10 all around, immobile, but cheaper. Sounds like a good trade especially to get interceptor. Hiding the thing behind my Aegis and the first platoon should hopefully help keep it alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

P.S., which Imperial Armour is the Hydra platform in, do you know?

IA 1, but the above linked pdf has the most current rules for them. IA 1 was published before 5th and the most recent IG codex (i think)

As I said, I hear IA 1 is being reprinted by FW in the near future with 6th ed rules, but I have not yet bothered to try to confirm it.

All flyers and all AA units were updated in IA:A

So, taking into account the criticisms so far posted to this thread, here is what I am thinking ...

HQ

CCS - lascannon, astropath, officer of the fleet, chimera (multilaser, hull HF) - 185

ELITES

Storm Troopers (5), meltagun x2 - 105

Marbo - 65

TROOPS

Platoon #1
PCS - flamer x3
PIS - autocannon, meltagun, commissar
PIS - autocannon, meltagun
220

Platoon #1
PCS - Al'Rahem, meltagun x3, chimera (multilaser, hull HF)
PIS - flamer, chimera (multilaser, hull HF)
PIS - flamer, chimera (multilaser, hull HF)
405

FAST ATTACK

Rough Riders (5) - meltagun x2, meltabombs - 80

Rough Riders (5) - meltagun x2, meltabombs - 80

HEAVY

Leman Russ - 150
Basilisk - 125

FORTIFICATIONS

Aegis Defence Line w/ Icarus Lascannon - 85

TOTAL = 1500
I swapped-out the Hydra for Marbo since it seems the Hydra will just die uselessly without adding meaningfully to my AA assets. Could swap-out the basilisk for a pair of Hydra platforms from Forgeworld, possibly (I believe they're 50 pts each).

Sorry for the delay. I recently played in a tourney with a "null-deployment-ish" list, ended up in 6th place because of my own stupid mistakes. The list worked really well.

In short, this is what I learned:
1: Planes work well in a reserve-heavy list, being able to strike anywhere on the board.
2: Astropath is GOLD!
3: If you do not have dedicated anti-air, expect to take lots of casualties and lose games to air.
4: You need to load up on special weapons in a reserve list, while heavy weapons can stay at home. Most enemies are in your face in turn 1-2. PCS/SWS are great!
5: Barrage is awesome.
6: Deepstriking heavy flamers are awesome.
7: Drop pods are great in these lists.
8: You need lots of troops, they die like flies.
9: Transports seem like they are mostly fit for one thing: getting your guys 18" somewhere in turn 1, then they generally die. As such, I question the value in a list like this. I would rather look into alternative means of getting where you need to be
10: If you have enough "bait", people will charge your line, overrun it, and then get totally pounded by your reserves. I had 2x manticore and 1x basilisk, and in almost every game, my opponents charged headlong into my lines, looking like they would run me over in turn 2, only to be almost annihilated as my army came on in optimal firing positions. The downside to this was that my aegis gun was stolen in several games. It fired more at my own planes than my opponent's
11: S10 is incredibly valuable because of all the T5 multi-wound stuff out there.

Looking at your last list, I would remove all heavy weapons and all chimeras. I would also drop the commissar, as 20 guardsmen with no power weapons die like flies, which is usually what you want them to do. I would also give all IS flamers. That is 315pts, enough to shore up your weaknesses, if you are willing to bring a vendetta. If you don't want to bring any planes, you will loose games to airpower. In the five games I played this tourney, I lost a total of one plane. I had three in my list. That meant that my planes were free to roam around for roughly 4 turns each game, allowing them to rack up an impressive amount of kills. In three games, they made sure my opponents could not win by removing scoring units which I would normally struggle to reach. While it is possible to deny planes their full value, stuff like that is going to happen if you have no answer to them, so if you do take that choice, you have to be aware of the consequenses.

If you want a suggestion for an actual list, I think something like the below would work very well, while still keeping with your theme and keeping your favorite units:
CCS, astropath, 3 melta

5 stormies, 2 flamer

PCS, 4 flamer
IS, flamer
IS, flamer
SWS, 3 melta

PCS, al'rahem, 3 melta
IS, flamer
IS, flamer
SWS, 3 flamer

5 Rough riders, 2 flamers, meltabombs
5 Rough riders, 2 melta, meltabombs
Vendetta

Basilisk, heavy flamer
Basilisk, heavy flamer
Leman Russ Demolisher, heavy flamer

Aegis + icarus
1500pts

Regardless if you want to use it or not, it hopefully illustrates my points. IMO, it has every base covered at least decently. You have the icarus and vendetta for anti-air, both of which are also very capable against ground targets. You have the ability to reach out anywhere with your barrage, vendetta and stormtroopers, and you also threaten a flank with al'Rahem and have some fast moving special weapons in the rough riders. S10 is covered decently with the demolisher, bait is covered by your punishing heavy support and you are capable of having extremely punishing firepower coming in from your baseline to counter-attack an overeager enemy. (even experienced opponents are likely to fall into this trap). One problem is that the reserve-numbers are not optimal, you have to start with 6 units on the table, and you really only want to start with 5. Not a huge problem of course.

I've read a lot of your reports Illumini, I always found them interesting and informative.
Any chance you can throw up the report from your latest tourney, or if not just the list you used?

Thanks. Not sure I will be able to put up a report, I have no pictures and little free time, but my list (2000pts) was:

CCS, banner, astropath, officer of the fleet, 3 melta
Runepriest, jaws, living lightning

5 Wolf Guard, 2 termie, heavy flamer, c-plasma, 3 c-melta, drop pod

PCS, 3 flamer
IS, flamer
IS, flamer
SWS, 3 melta
SWS, 3 melta
Veterans, heavy flamer, 2 melta, hades breaching drill
8 Grey hunters, banner, plasma, drop pod

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vulture, twin-punisher cannon

Manticore
Manticore
Basilisk

Aegis + icarus

I met orks, space marines + tau, necrons, tau + GK and new CSM + deamons. Great to see the huge variety in armies 6th ed has brought.

Yeah I've definitely seen a resurgence of tau in 6th. They seem to be everywhere at my FLGS. I've also seen a decline in GK in favour of BA or Vanilla marines, which is great to see imo, I hate seeing an opponent with about 20 models.

The forge world stuff looks cool, shame I've never used it. I need to get my hands on some manticores, I never had any in 5th due to disliking the scatter potential, but now they've had a huge buff. Thanks for putting up the list!