Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello there Dakkanauts !

Wanted some input about something that's been bothering me for a few days.

I'm not a WarmaHordes player (yet ?), and since the game sparked my interest I've been doing some homework to understand the rules, the factions, etc. What's not to like about a steam-powered fantasy setting where huge mechanical powerhouses wreak havoc on the battlefield ? Well...
I've been getting the impression that Warmachine isn't all that much about the eponymous warjacks. I see "jack casters" presented as an exception rather than a norm. There seems to be actually few room for 'jacks in an army, with infantry being overall more efficient (and effective ?) even before getting into focus consumption. In the end, even though it's big, a 'jack is still one model ; obviously a support spell is going to be more effective if cast on a unit, where it benefits multiple models. Number means board control. There just seems to be more and better synergy with infantry overall...
And of course, I heard about the "Infantrymachine" concept. Even if it's only a debate, doesn't the fact there is room for debate confirm that something's a bit off ?

So here's my question.
Is the game really about the war machines to you ?


(If this kind of thread has already been done, by all means do direct me to it. I say that since there seems to be a lot of redundance in the threads posted here, and btw I'm amazed at the local regulars' patience toward those : P )

Salut! (edit-saw your flag)

While going infantry heavy with loads of very efficient infantry lessens the load on your caster and commands board control, here are a few issues with running boat loads of infantry:

1. You WILL block your own models. Models in Warmachine can not pass over other bases during movement (unless they have ghostly and/or acrobatic). Sometimes this happens at a critical junction and an important model is boxed in and/or prevented from charging due to your own horde being in the way. If you can't draw a line without crossing an intervening base, you can't shoot either!

2. Your horde is inherently not durable. Enemy sprays and AOEs will eat you alive. Continuous effects will eat you alive. Certain anti-horde Feats such as pFeora (your entire army is on fire) or pCaine (your entire army gets shot) will wreck your face. Spreading out to minimize casualties is one of the main causes of problem 1. Sometimes spreading out will totally screw you as your front rank gets decimated, but your back rank is spread out too far to retaliate.

3. Your squad needs to be within 4" of an objective to score.

4. Unless you take a hoard of medium based infantry enemies can trample over you to the chewy caster in the back. You can stop this by spreading out, but you go back to issue 1 and 2. Issue 3 too, if you're trying to score.

5. Once your elite heavy infantry go down, you'll be hard pressed to stop enemy heavy warjacks / beasts.

In most cases, IMHO, it is best to take a balanced approach with Jacks/Beasts and infantry, built around a singular strategy.

I tend to run 2 to 3 beasts/jacks in my army, taking advantage of warjack points. This usually leaves me with 20 points to spend on infantry. With my trolls, this allows for Champions, and other basics. With Khador, I can get a full unit of winterguard unit, etc...

And it's also up to the caster you choose. Keezus is right though, masses of infantry can hinder you in the game because of how much board space they take up.

Hyd wrote:Hello there Dakkanauts !

Wanted some input about something that's been bothering me for a few days.

I'm not a WarmaHordes player (yet ?), and since the game sparked my interest I've been doing some homework to understand the rules, the factions, etc. What's not to like about a steam-powered fantasy setting where huge mechanical powerhouses wreak havoc on the battlefield ? Well...
I've been getting the impression that Warmachine isn't all that much about the eponymous warjacks. I see "jack casters" presented as an exception rather than a norm. There seems to be actually few room for 'jacks in an army, with infantry being overall more efficient (and effective ?) even before getting into focus consumption. In the end, even though it's big, a 'jack is still one model ; obviously a support spell is going to be more effective if cast on a unit, where it benefits multiple models. Number means board control. There just seems to be more and better synergy with infantry overall...
And of course, I heard about the "Infantrymachine" concept. Even if it's only a debate, doesn't the fact there is room for debate confirm that something's a bit off ?

So here's my question.
Is the game really about the war machines to you ?


(If this kind of thread has already been done, by all means do direct me to it. I say that since there seems to be a lot of redundance in the threads posted here, and btw I'm amazed at the local regulars' patience toward those : P )

warmachine is about warmachines in the way that hordes is about hordes

Warjacks are a huge part of the game. they are a signature piece, and an iconic visual of the setting. they are not the game, howevee. they are not the signature piece, nor the iconic visual of the game. essentially, as awesome as they are, warmachine is not about warjacks. Nor should it be. even back in the day when it was the iron Kingdoms, and it was a D20 RPG setting, warjacks, while present, did not stand out as being what everything else revolved around.

another game is all but ruined by an over reliance on a single icon, with a huge amount of available product, a huge majority of thw written fiction, and most of the rulebooks based on them (space marines fyi). Do you really want that with warmachine?

Its simply a small, yet vocal minority who want the game to be a one dimensional bash fest with giant robots. and im sorry, but the game, and the game world is simply bigger and more complicated than that. it makes sense that jacks are rarer. look at Irusks 4th assault battallion. 20,000 infantry. 80 warjacks. *shrug* the game is about combined arms - a mix of jacks, support, and infantry. right now, you have that.


Also, while infantry are more prevalent, i, and many others still happily take 2-3 jacks in each list. Its only with dedicated infantry casters (like Irusk) that i would focus more on infantry. Jacks have won me plenty games. especially the behemoth. infantry spam can be done, but with the new SR2012 time limits, managing a horde is problematic at best. Also, infantry spam has their hard counters. p Krueger for one. Caine for another.

Deadnight wrote:

warmachine is about warmachines in the way that hordes is about hordes

Warjacks are a huge part of the game. they are a signature piece, and an iconic visual of the setting. they are not the game, howevee. they are not the signature piece, nor the iconic visual of the game. essentially, as awesome as they are, warmachine is not about warjacks. Nor should it be. even back in the day when it was the iron Kingdoms, and it was a D20 RPG setting, warjacks, while present, did not stand out as being what everything else revolved around.

another game is all but ruined by an over reliance on a single icon, with a huge amount of available product, a huge majority of thw written fiction, and most of the rulebooks based on them (space marines fyi). Do you really want that with warmachine?

Its simply a small, yet vocal minority who want the game to be a one dimensional bash fest with giant robots. and im sorry, but the game, and the game world is simply bigger and more complicated than that. it makes sense that jacks are rarer. look at Irusks 4th assault battallion. 20,000 infantry. 80 warjacks. *shrug* the game is about combined arms - a mix of jacks, support, and infantry. right now, you have that.


Also, while infantry are more prevalent, i, and many others still happily take 2-3 jacks in each list. Its only with dedicated infantry casters (like Irusk) that i would focus more on infantry. Jacks have won me plenty games. especially the behemoth. infantry spam can be done, but with the new SR2012 time limits, managing a horde is problematic at best. Also, infantry spam has their hard counters. p Krueger for one. Caine for another.

Agreed. The good, solid balance of infantry and warjack is what drew me to Warmachine over other miniature games. Rather than having to use swarms of small units (*cough* Tyranids *cough*) or rely solely on over-priced large models, an army in Warmachine is in fact a collection of soldiers balanced out and supported by large, devastating warjacks.

As far as the actual title of the game, I always thought "Warmachine" referred to the collective overall force presented by an army (i.e. that army is a veritable machine of war due to its efficiency and power) rather than referring to literal machines of war. Not that the literal reference doesn't also have its place....

I know I can count on Dakka for quality answers like those. Thanks for your excellent contributions !

So infantry does suffer from diminishing returns, and the rule of thumb is to articulate a combined force around a plan (and your warcaster, certainly) so the varied "gears" interact at peak efficiency.
*grin* Yeah, I can live with that. Sounds tasty.

I'll willfully acknowledge I've been struck by the "only here for Godzilla" syndrome, though I must say warjacks are so emblematic you can hardly not feel the appeal. That being said, I do like the balanced approach, if only for tactical versatility and diversity's sake.

I think I've realized something since I started this thread, and I admit it's a bit silly... But it seems I just can't find an army whose infantry I find appealing ! (Or it's the arching theme that doesn't do.) In a twist, that might well be the deciding factor for my faction in the end.

I have to admit those Exemplars are pretty awesome... Then again, Cryx checks all the other boxes, but so does Khador as well... Seems like it's my turn to go through this dilemma

Yep, it's basically Space Marine Syndrome. You have your big huge steam powered warjack. That warjack looks awesome when it's running around smashing puny infantry models into the dust, but you have to give the other player a reason to bring the puny infantry for you to smash.

On the other hand, each faction should have one or more warcasters that are designed specifically to just let you take all of the warjacks that you can afford, not counting the various support solos that you'll still need.

I don't think the comparison with Space Marines stands, in that the problem with them is the overrepresentation of very similar factions, whereas warjacks are a staple of the game as a whole. My concern was about 'jacks looking somewhat gimmicky from what I had gathered, and wouldn't it be a shame if they were ?

Hyd wrote:
So here's my question.
Is the game really about the war machines to you ?

If you're running Nemo and 10+ Jacks, it sure is.

Hyd wrote:I don't think the comparison with Space Marines stands, in that the problem with them is the overrepresentation of very similar factions, whereas warjacks are a staple of the game as a whole. My concern was about 'jacks looking somewhat gimmicky from what I had gathered, and wouldn't it be a shame if they were ?

It is true jacks won't be filling a majority of your points or be in the spotlight for the whole game, but they are far from gimiky and do form an integral part of the puzzle. You probably wont bring more than 1-3 jacks but their attacks have value in being strong and boostable. Boostable attacks are adaptable and can be either accurate, devastating, or both. Jacks serve as problem solvers and heavy hitters with the only downsides being limited volume and spread of attacks and limited focus supply. I remember far more games in which the final attack was made by a jack charging than a unit charging.

Dais wrote: I remember far more games in which the final attack was made by a jack charging than a unit charging.

Same with me in terms of 'jacks being game-enders, although I've never actually won a game with a 'jack charging. I tend to have my games end with a Charger at 3 focus getting in position and sniping. BA-BOOM! Nobody lives through that (unless they do, of course).

Yeah, I've been saying that a lot recently. Just because 'jacks
don't take center stage, doesn't mean you can ignore them. They
are capital ships surrounded by infantry fighters.

If you want Jack spam that works, play Cryx, Morty's Tier list and watch many opponents cry as they are unable to handle that much heavy metal on table.

hivemind66 wrote:If you want Jack spam that works, play Cryx, Morty's Tier list and watch many opponents cry as they are unable to handle that much heavy metal on table.

Or else rockin' it with Karchev. Nothing says heavy metal like that bad boy!

Warmachine the game has never seemed to be all about warjacks. To be sure they are a distinct piece(s) on the table with a certain presence, but while warjacks are war machines they most certainly are not Warmachine.

Warmachine isn't only about warjacks. I agree with previous posts that balance is necessary and you can trip yourself up by running too much infantry or too many jacks. I tend to run two or three. However, with some warcasters (I will talk about Menoth since I play them), a large infantry brick is needed (Silent Bob and ToM for souls) or a key part of the strategy, such as with epic Kreoss, while other casters shine at running lots of jacks like Amon.