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HQ - Bjorn - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Living Lightning - Murderous Hurricane - Chooser of the Slain. 110
EL - Dreadnought - TL Lascannon - HF on DCCW. 145
EL - Dreadnought - TL Lascannon - HF on DCCW. 145
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - Rhino w/Dozer Blade. 120
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
FA - Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter - Typhoon Missile Launcher. 90
FA - Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter - Typhoon Missile Launcher. 90
FA - 4x Thunderwolves - TH - SS - SS/meltabombs - naked. 295
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Heavy Bolters - TL Heavy Bolters Razorback. 155
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000 pts

- Living Lightning
- 1x Plasma Cannon
- 3x Heavy Flamers
- 1x Meltagun
- 2x Flamers
- 7x Heavy Bolters
- 1x TL Heavy Bolter
- 14x Missile Launchers
- 4x TL Lascannon

I know.. I know.. the most part of you will laugh looking at these little and very fragile, I admit, troop choices.

Just le me tell you that, apart DOW deployments, I wouldn't field them up until the 3 turn (with average rolls). And even if some of them will come in in the 2nd they will hide pretty well I swear.

However, as you can see, I would be able to throw a lot of dakka vs the enemy (and this is a fact believe me, it's already a lot of time I use this setup without the TWC). More than often, average the 75% of times, starting first.

So the TWC. Do not look at them as spearheaders or the classic deathstar unit that will rush up spitting fire and howling blasphemies!
They are my counter attack unit.

The only big problem I had with the classics Bjorn's lists is that one-by-one each unit is from averagely to really fragile and so, every time a solid CC unit had touched my lines (even a little TH/SS Terms unit) I had some strange implosion phenomenons on my table side.
This haven't caused unstandable difficulties to win the games actually, infact the most times my enemy forces were already seriously depleted and once the deathstars killed one Long Fangs unit or a GH unit sacrified to block them in the middle (when available with the precious use of Murderous Hurricane) they alwais sucked a lot of bullets before beeing stucked in a senseless battle with my 3 tarpit-Dreads.
Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, with all those BA, Deathwingers, Draigo fellows and lately even the return of some pretty almost-forgotten Necron Wraiths all around my poor iced planet I'm feeling the need of a little slap/bang/stonk help (do you remember the '80 Batman TV serial? Ahh what a golden age!). Poor me, myself and I.

So, finally, what the cheesiest cheese lovers think about this list?

For your info I don't play often in tournaments but my local group of friends/opponents yes and so the competitiveness level is very "trained".

Ivan

So will you be using your rune priest to support some long fangs?
I don't see him doing anything with the troops if they are going to be waiting around until turn 3 to see the board.
Is ther rhino worth it too, it gives away a kill point and you won't be using it apart from rushing forward a troop to claim an objective but unless things have gone wrong there should be n-2 in your area for you to hold and the twc can contest one while you shoot everyone off another with all the guns you have.

My initial thought is that your troop count is rather low. Only 5 GH in a rhino and the rest on foot. That seems like a disaster in objective games (even counting Bjorn as a possible objective) having only 15 total models who can score. Even upon entering turn 3 on average you may not have enough bodies.

The rest of the list looks solid indeed. I kit my TWC the same way and also use them as a support/scare tactic pack.

Even though the LF's with HB have a shorter range, you could free up some points for a TL Las cannon to add to the low AP count.

End of Line

Low AP count?
Are 4 tl lazcannons, 14 krak missiles and a plasma cannon not a decent AP count?
The lazcannons can take AV14 and 13, the missiles can take everything else and the plasma can take out a trasport.

@ Liturgies of Blood:
I totally copy yours reflections but there are a few things to keep on mind.
- 1 TL HB Razorback instead wouldn't offer so many things more.
- in DoW deployments allow me to field the damned 2 troop choices (the melta GH's pack+ the Rhino) and then push them 12" ahead to searchlight something important to shoot at. In this case I will fielld Bjorn too.
- in other deployments I will fit the Rune Priest in (still with the melta pack in the Rhino), keeping them all in far cover. When available out of LOS of course. During the game and depending on the opponent advance I would be able to throw some LL or Murderous Hurricane.

Of course there may be others things to think about that I missed fo sure, that's why I'm hoping in some other useful feedback like yours.

PS: looking at your flag I were thinking you to be Italian lol, almost same colours but at least ten degrees of difference I guess

@ Rhapsody
Indeed you're right about the very very low troop's model count. This is the trickiest part of the list but actually even the little plus that allow me to field so many other treats.
Of course I may had pushed too far the limit edge, only real and long playtesting would tell the truth but I'm still quite confident about this setup. Obviously by my others lists experience and by my playstyle.

Anyway, if this isn't clear, the to GH's packs with flamer are supposed to steal some Long Fangs razorbacks during the game. At least one of them because I alwais like to keep a troop not so far my beloved Bjorn. And not only in C/C games.

Talking about the AP shoots count. I'm quitely happy with my selection honestly. Even if a rarely use them all in Krak version 14 AP3 ST8 shoots, not to mention obviously the lasers and the BS6 Plasma Cannon had alwais done their job pretty well.
Many people, deploying forces, ask me why the hell I take HBs on my Long Fangs when Missiles are just 5 pts more each one. During the game they understand.

When I said 'Low AP' count, I meant the low AP as in AP1 or AP2... Sorry for the confusion.

End of Line

I never use Bjorn, but that is a very cheeky way to get him to hit something in turn one of dawn of war. I hadn't even thought of it.

I usually run a single pack of LF's with 3 HB and 2PC because of the same range on the two weapons (and 2 packs with 5x ML). But as of late I have wanted a little more dakka, and we don't have that many options for producing as much firepower as five Fangs with Heavy Bolters!! I can see how the Razorback fits into that scheme.

In my play group, weaknesses are exploited firstly, and foremost. So running low amounts of troops always scares me. But I see how this army can keep a phalanx and make the opponent come to you all the while shooting it apart. I hope this list brings you many victories Brother.

End of Line

Bjorn, because of the price and the super cheap alternative Rune Priest, is really a love/hate model.

If you love him you'll discover that he might love you too in return and let you win a lot of games with easy.

If you hate him you couldn't never adapt yourself on all the sub-tactics he require to respect. Or completely forget and erase from your playbook o course...

Anyway, talking with my self, if in the next playtests I will discover to really be short in troops I will eventually exchange the naked TWX and the meltabombs + the TL Lascannon upgrade on a Dread (for a TL Autocannon or eventually a good-old multi-melta) and take another 75 pts GH w/flamer pack.

All depends about the TWCs and how they will work.

Toban wrote:I know.. I know.. the most part of you will laugh looking at these little and very fragile, I admit, troop choices.

At 2000 points it will take one turn of shooting to effectively neutralize them.

Toban wrote:Just le me tell you that, apart DOW deployments, I wouldn't field them up until the 3 turn (with average rolls). And even if some of them will come in in the 2nd they will hide pretty well I swear.

Who cares? Either the game is kill points or there are 2-5 objectives. If its KP, 5 Grey Hunters are incredibly easy to kill. Especially since two of them don't have a Transport to hide in. If its Objectives, only one of them is likely to be a threat that late in the game to any objective. I'll grant you a Rhino with Smoke Launchers can be annoying, but you won't even be able to contest enough Objectives to win in most games. You'll be lucky to get a draw.

Toban wrote:However, as you can see, I would be able to throw a lot of dakka vs the enemy (and this is a fact believe me, it's already a lot of time I use this setup without the TWC). More than often, average the 75% of times, starting first.

Who cares? Other armies can still out shoot you. Vanilla Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Tau, and more can put out more weapons than you are bringing. There is a difference between playing a shooty army and a shooty Space Wolf army. Don't fool yourself into thinking you'll be able to out shoot dedicated shooting armies. Space Wolves are hybrids at a fundamental level, which is why they do better as Hybrid lists. But only if you are playing to your strengths.

Toban wrote:So the TWC. Do not look at them as spearheaders or the classic deathstar unit that will rush up spitting fire and howling blasphemies!
They are my counter attack unit.

Good, though I personally prefer to call 'em "rapid response" since you can use them aggressively to pin an enemy unit down somewhere rather than just having them come to the rescue of something else. Beside the point though.

Toban wrote:So, finally, what the cheesiest cheese lovers think about this list?

It needs work, but the potential is there.

liturgies of blood wrote:So will you be using your rune priest to support some long fangs?
I don't see him doing anything with the troops if they are going to be waiting around until turn 3 to see the board.

I'm with liturgies of blood on this one, but will go farther. There isn't much of a point to the Rune Priest if you aren't taking advantage of him fully. And to do that, you need him up front and center where he can nullify psychic powers.

liturgies of blood wrote:Is ther rhino worth it too, it gives away a kill point and you won't be using it apart from rushing forward a troop to claim an objective but unless things have gone wrong there should be n-2 in your area for you to hold and the twc can contest one while you shoot everyone off another with all the guns you have.

I'd say the Rhino is needed, though 5 points to get a Heavy Bolter would go a long way for the list.

Toban wrote:All depends about the TWCs and how they will work.

And that depends on how you are going to use them. 3 with 1-2 Storm Shields and a Power Fist is pretty standard fare. They can take on pretty much anything, though lots of high Initiative attacks are bad for them (they only have 6 wounds between them after all).

Personally I think your list needs an overhaul:

Drop the TWC down to 3 with 2 Storm Shields and a Power Fist. Comes in at 235 points, has 5 S10 attacks and enough Invulnerable 3+ saves to ruin most people's day.

Drop the Rune Priest. You aren't even really using him.

Add two Razorbacks with Heavy Bolter to the two Grey Hunters that are on foot.

Drop the Meltagun from the 5 man Grey Hunter pack in the Rhino as well as the Dozer Blade. Upgrade their Rhino to a Razorback with Heavy Bolter..

Drop the Heavy Flamers from the two normal Dreadnoughts. You won't actually use it all that much since if you are close enough to use it you want to charge into combat.

Add another Grey Hunter pack (5 man with Flamer) and put them in a Razorback with Heavy Bolter.

Drop the Land Speeder Typhoons and just take Multi-Meltas.

Upgrade the 5 Heavy Bolters on the Long Fang squad to Missile Launchers.

Upgrade that Long Fang pack's Heavy Bolter Razorback to TLLC.

In the end the list would look like this:



Your weapon inventory at range would instead be:
5 BS4 Twin-Linked Lascannons (5 potential targets/turn)
15 BS4 Missile Launchers (6 potential targets/turn)
1 BS5 Plasma Cannon (1 potential target/turn)
4 BS4 Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters (4 potential targets/turn)
2 BS4 Multi-Meltas (2 potential targets/turn)

Compared to what you were bringing before:
4 BS4 Twin-Linked Lascannons (4 potential targets/turn)
14 BS4 Missile Launchers (6 potential targets/turn, if 2 potential Heavy Bolter targets are sacrificed)
1 BS5 Plasma Cannon (1 potential target/turn)
1 BS4 Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter (1 potential target/turn)
7 BS4 Heavy Bolter (4 potential targets/turn, if 2 potential Missile Launcher targets are sacrificed)
1 BS5 Living Lightning (1 potential target/turn)

18 targets vs 15 targets. The number of guns may be comparable, but the number of units that are doing the firing is not. Also, I only consider weapons with a range of 36" above when listing firepower. Meltaguns and Flamers are awesome tools for what they do but they aren't ranged punishment. They're for when the enemy gets close. The only reason to count the Multi-Meltas is because they are on Land Speeders which can move fast or deep strike.

You'll have more effective shooting, and be able to punish horde lists better. You have enough anti-tank between the 5 TLLC (5 potential targets) and 15 ML (6 potential targets) to decimate armor as well.

Even better, all your troops are now protected in a vehicle. This goes a long way to ensure their survival. It also means that if you do reserve them, they are more likely to be able to contest or claim an objective later in the game.

I still don't like that there is no Rune Priest but there is no help for it really. You weren't using it effectively in your previous list so you probably won't miss the psychic defense.

You for sure had highlighted some of the weak and good pts of this kind of lists, talking in general. Really.

I, however, would like to start from the beginning.

Underlining in particular 1 thing that you apparently can't stand (I may understand it) but that infact I'm very confident with.

This is the list from where I started my customization:

HQ - Bjorn - HF on DCCW - Plasmacannon. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Jaws Of The World Wolf & Storm Caller. 100
EL - Dreadnought - HF on DCCW - TL Lascannon. 145
EL - Dreadnought - HF on DCCW - TL Lascannon. 145
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - TL Assault Cannon Razorback. 155
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - TL Assault Cannon Razorback. 155
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Heavy Bolter Razorback. 180
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000


3x Heavy Flamers
1x Plasmacannon
2x Meltagun
2x Flamers
4x TL Lascannons
2x TL Assault Cannons
3x Heavy Bolters
1x TL Heavy Bolter
21x Missile Launchers

As you will point out of course 2 little pts are still problematic by your points of you. Not all the troops are in transports and the Rune Priest has no vehicle with shooting points to throw out his spells from the inside of the vehicle.

However, as Reecius has clearly showed (he is the author of the upper list), if all these models are used properly this list actually function very very very, really very well.

The first thing I understood wasn't really ok for me was the Rune Priest just taking a lift in a Razorback reaching the 24" bubble of the psychic hood (ans the TL Assault cannon also).
And of course having him jumping out the vehicle just to try a Yes Yes/NO NO Jaws of the World Wolf or Murderous Hurricane.

So now with my build, depending obviously by the adversary, not only the Rune Priest would be into a vehicle but in the same time he would be able to cast Living Lightning in the beginning of the game (from my rear line of deployment) and murderous hurricane when the enemy will start to close in. In the same time, obviously with the major treats in the enemy shooty potential depleted or nullified, he will advance vs the midfield. Heading one objective. And this work pretty well to me. Of course really often he and his little sq. have to complete the distance on foot but at least 12" +cover are granted.

So, first thing first, I converted the 40 pts TL HB Razorback present in the list in a Rhino w/Dozer Blade and obviously reassigned the TL Assault Cannon Razorbacks.

The second think you look to don't love at all are the vehicle-less little troops.
I'm used to take them this way and honeslty I never suffered their walking in condition. They alwais, ALWAIS had found a free Razorback (buyed for the Long Fangs) ready to give them a lift. So, you see now, my troops aren't actually "on foot". Is not a case actually that there are more empty vehicles than the number of the troops that would eventually use them, just in case some of them would be immobilized/wrecked/destroyed.

Following point by point:
- HF on Dreadnoughts; I found them to be ESSENTIAL honeslty. Not only because 10 pts aren't a huge budget but also because more than often seriously depleted units with one Heavy Flamer and 1 or 2 supporting Flamers (ORCS I'm talking to you!) before givin' them some friendly slaps.
Besides, as I understood how to profit from a Rhino wall in all the past years using Sisters, Flamers are hugely effective when you may shot your opponent and he can't assault you in return.
- You have (with your list I mean) 3 Kill pts more than me. Something that lost games for me many times..
- good point on the TWC, dropping them to 3 elements with the right equipment should certainly work and save precious pts.
- I really don't like these only-MM Land Speeders. You're actually suicide them ahead hoping them to survive enought and use (if lucky 2 times) their MM. I completely understand the needs of MM on field nowadays but I don't like suicide units this way. My Typhoons, staying carefully in the backfield, result more than often out of range for the opponents (Dark Eldar not included unfortunately). This allow me to hunt side armors, sweet targets and of course, later during matches, flat-out to contest objects.
Besides, when you say if I use HB I don't use Missiles and vice-versa. Well, it isn't true you know, Frag missiles are actually very useful when the vehicles are exploded and the targets are walking.
- You're right regarding the HB on Long Fangs converted in Missiles. Point-wisely, I agree with you, the ML are of course the better choice but I honestly like too much 15x ST5 shoots, they actually work in a beautiful sinergy with their MLs brothers.

However, even if there are many pts on what we aren't in accord I thank you for the brain storming.
i will actually try the list with just 3 TWC and all the changes I may do with the resulting free points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated list:

HQ - Bjorn - Plasma Cannon - HF on DCCW. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Living Lightning - Murderous Hurricane. 100
EL - Dreadnought - TL Lascannon - HF on DCCW. 145
EL - Dreadnought - TL Lascannon - HF on DCCW. 145
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - Rhino. 115
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
FA - Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter - Typhoon Missile Launcher. 90
FA - Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter - Typhoon Missile Launcher. 90
FA - 3x TWC - PF/SS - SS - naked. 235
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Heavy Bolters - TL Heavy Bolters Razorback. 155
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000 pts

- Living Lightning
- 1x Plasma Cannon
- 3x Heavy Flamers
- 1x Meltagun
- 3x Flamers
- 7x Heavy Bolters
- 1x TL Heavy Bolter
- 14x Missile Launchers
- 4x TL Lascannon

Bullet count unchanged but 1 moer Flamer.

Toban wrote:You for sure had highlighted some of the weak and good pts of this kind of lists, talking in general. Really.

I, however, would like to start from the beginning.

Underlining in particular 1 thing that you apparently can't stand (I may understand it) but that infact I'm very confident with.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

Toban wrote:This is the list from where I started my customization:

HQ - Bjorn - HF on DCCW - Plasmacannon. 270
HQ - Rune Priest - Jaws Of The World Wolf & Storm Caller. 100
EL - Dreadnought - HF on DCCW - TL Lascannon. 145
EL - Dreadnought - HF on DCCW - TL Lascannon. 145
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - TL Assault Cannon Razorback. 155
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Meltagun - TL Assault Cannon Razorback. 155
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
TR - 5x Grey Hunters - Flamer. 75
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
FA - Land speeder - HB - TML. 90
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Heavy Bolter Razorback. 180
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
HV - 6x Long Fangs - 5x ML - TL Lascannon Razorback. 215
Tot. 2000

This list is okay but not spectacular. It has its own problems I won't bother going in to.

Toban wrote:3x Heavy Flamers
1x Plasmacannon
2x Meltagun
2x Flamers
4x TL Lascannons
2x TL Assault Cannons
3x Heavy Bolters
1x TL Heavy Bolter
21x Missile Launchers

This kind of list of firepower is misleading. What is important is how many different enemy units you can affect on a given turn, and to a lesser extend what types of units you can affect.

Toban wrote:As you will point out of course 2 little pts are still problematic by your points of you. Not all the troops are in transports and the Rune Priest has no vehicle with shooting points to throw out his spells from the inside of the vehicle.

If that is what you think is all I think is problematic, then you misunderstood what I was saying.

Toban wrote:However, as Reecius has clearly showed (he is the author of the upper list), if all these models are used properly this list actually function very very very, really very well.

By your own admittance you aren't a hardcore tournament player. It takes more than having the list to make it play well. Also, you are changing the dynamics of the list entirely by trying to fit TWC into it.

Reecius' list is fairly strong, but it can itself be improved. He did excellent last year in Adepticon (5th out of what, 250?). But keep in mind, some of his opponents were really poor. Look at his battle report and read day 1. The first two opponents were rather poor Blood Angels lists (especially for the point value). The players may have been good, but the lists.... well look for yourself. Game 4 was against an Ork army, which his list would perform favorably against.

Frankly, is just isn't the end all/be all of a Bjorn list.

Toban wrote:The first thing I understood wasn't really ok for me was the Rune Priest just taking a lift in a Razorback reaching the 24" bubble of the psychic hood (ans the TL Assault cannon also).
And of course having him jumping out the vehicle just to try a Yes Yes/NO NO Jaws of the World Wolf or Murderous Hurricane.

In the original list that is one thing, but in your modified list (that I was commenting on), its something else entirely. More on that later.

Toban wrote:So now with my build, depending obviously by the adversary, not only the Rune Priest would be into a vehicle but in the same time he would be able to cast Living Lightning in the beginning of the game (from my rear line of deployment) and murderous hurricane when the enemy will start to close in. In the same time, obviously with the major treats in the enemy shooty potential depleted or nullified, he will advance vs the midfield. Heading one objective. And this work pretty well to me. Of course really often he and his little sq. have to complete the distance on foot but at least 12" +cover are granted.

You are contradicting yourself now. You said in your original post you generally keep your troops in reserve so they don't arrive until around turn 3. That means you are wasting the Rune Priest since he won't be even in the game until late game. He loses a lot of his sparkle this way.

Toban wrote:So, first thing first, I converted the 40 pts TL HB Razorback present in the list in a Rhino w/Dozer Blade and obviously reassigned the TL Assault Cannon Razorbacks.

You did more than that but we'll get to it.

Toban wrote:The second think you look to don't love at all are the vehicle-less little troops.

Again, you seem to be missing the point. Vehicle-less troops are fine. If you put more models in the unit or depending on what the missions are. The reason they work for Reecius is because of the missions at Adepticon. There were a lot of Objectives on your half of the table, usually near a table edge. It wasn't a problem for them to get into the fight at full strength. It is a problem in your list, particularly since you are likely just doing random missions.

Toban wrote:I'm used to take them this way and honeslty I never suffered their walking in condition. They alwais, ALWAIS had found a free Razorback (buyed for the Long Fangs) ready to give them a lift. So, you see now, my troops aren't actually "on foot". Is not a case actually that there are more empty vehicles than the number of the troops that would eventually use them, just in case some of them would be immobilized/wrecked/destroyed.

They can't start in the Long Fang's Razorback and again, you are missing another point: armor saturation.

Toban wrote:Following point by point:
- HF on Dreadnoughts; I found them to be ESSENTIAL honeslty. Not only because 10 pts aren't a huge budget but also because more than often seriously depleted units with one Heavy Flamer and 1 or 2 supporting Flamers (ORCS I'm talking to you!) before givin' them some friendly slaps.
Besides, as I understood how to profit from a Rhino wall in all the past years using Sisters, Flamers are hugely effective when you may shot your opponent and he can't assault you in return.

Toban wrote:- You have (with your list I mean) 3 Kill pts more than me. Something that lost games for me many times..

It also has more firepower and mobility, giving you some flexibility in your tactics. Being less predictable is a good thing and worth the trade off in my opinion.

Toban wrote:- I really don't like these only-MM Land Speeders. You're actually suicide them ahead hoping them to survive enought and use (if lucky 2 times) their MM. I completely understand the needs of MM on field nowadays but I don't like suicide units this way. My Typhoons, staying carefully in the backfield, result more than often out of range for the opponents (Dark Eldar not included unfortunately). This allow me to hunt side armors, sweet targets and of course, later during matches, flat-out to contest objects.

Why would you suicide them? Just because they have Multi-Melta's? That's wrong-headed thinking. There is no reason to "suicide" with them, and with their speed its fairly easy to keep them with a cover save (either from flat out, staying behind cover, or staying behind your Rhinos/Dreadnoughts) so that they last until later on. Use them intelligently and they'll serve you fine, especially since in my list I dropped the Meltaguns from the Grey Hunters.

Toban wrote:Besides, when you say if I use HB I don't use Missiles and vice-versa. Well, it isn't true you know, Frag missiles are actually very useful when the vehicles are exploded and the targets are walking.

But when you are shooting Krak Missiles at vehicles you usually aren't able to use the Heavy Bolter. Also, if you end up moving 12" with them you can't fire both anyways.

Toban wrote:- You're right regarding the HB on Long Fangs converted in Missiles. Point-wisely, I agree with you, the ML are of course the better choice but I honestly like too much 15x ST5 shoots, they actually work in a beautiful sinergy with their MLs brothers.

Misuse of the word synergy, you aren't a middle manager are you? I take some Heavy Bolters myself, but the real strength of a Bjorn list is in your first turn punch. Maxing out the likely hood that the enemy has no vehicles or MCs left is more important than maybe hitting a few guys that are actually within 36" of your Long Fangs. In order to be hitting him on Turn 1 with them, you'd have to be deployed fairly far forward, which you can't always do.

Toban wrote:However, even if there are many pts on what we aren't in accord I thank you for the brain storming.
i will actually try the list with just 3 TWC and all the changes I may do with the resulting free points.

Totally up to you. It is your list after all! I just think you are missing the point on some things that I thought were obvious. Namely:

1) You want roughly 1 scoring unit per 500 points. 15 scoring models, 10 of them walking, is exceptionally light at 2000 points. Even the original list by Reecius is a bit light on troops and is relying on having the first turn to make up for that. You can get away with it sometimes but I know plenty of lists around here that demolish that Bjorn list fairly regularly.

2) You seem to assume tactics with units rather than truly thinking on how you can use them. For example, the Multi-Melta Land Speeders. Why are they there? They sure aren't there for suicide runs! They are there for heavy armor like Land Raiders. Local meta may be biasing me, but dual Land Raider lists are annoying and I don't trust Lascannons to take care of them, even 5 of them (your list has only 4).

3) You talk about flamer walls with Rhinos but you don't have the vehicles to do it. You have one Rhino and three Razorbacks. That's pretty easy to knock out. Also if you take a second look at my version of the list you'll see the points are spread across pretty tightly already. You could drop a Storm Shield from the TWC to take them, but there isn't anything else that is really worth sacrificing.

4) You dropped some of the tools available to the Rune Priest and made a fragile target that is going to get hit Turn 1. Your own tactics you profess to use also mean your Rune Priest isn't doing anything until Turn 3 or Turn 4 and is in your backfield, precisely where he is least useful. I split off my Rune Priest all the time and have him run around by himself, that's the great thing about an IC, but the way you suggest it also leaves him vulnerable to being wiped out from enemy shooting.

5) You dropped a scoring unit with a transport to make room for the TWC. It would be better to drop one of the walking units.

6) You dropped a fair portion of the ranged anti-tank.

7) Your list has 9 vehicles at 2000 points. That's pretty light. The goal is target saturation. If you provide too many targets for the enemy anti-tank, rather than just enough, the end up being overwhelmed. They won't always take out a vehicle, and each failure to do so is even more painful the more vehicles you have. My list bumps up the number of vehicles to 12. Sure, its 3 more kill points but it also helps keep your other vehicles alive, the troops inside alive, and gives you some more mobility and deployment options.

8) If you look at Reecius's list, mine is actually closer to it oddly enough. Just look at what he was bringing:
You cut out a lot of the important parts of his list when making yours it seems. To be honest, I wasn't that familiar with Reecius's exact list until this thread and didn't find out exactly what he took until your reply just now (it got me Googling). Maybe it fits your local meta and that's why you have the changes you made, I don't know. But if you wanted a more competitive list I'd start looking at why I was suggesting the things I was rather than discarding them off hand.

My apologies if that's not what you are doing, but that's how it came across.

I know this is off topic but I wish I could find a gif for the cat that keeps going "Oooh!" from Puss n boots when I see a wall of text like that...

@ cowmonaut
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm taking really seriously each and every C/C and don't think that I'm discarding them one by one. Excuse me for my english if my replies let you thought it.

Tryin' to resuming to help everyone else following the thread without writing bibles, me too I'm a long long writer ;P

- Armor Saturation. Indisputably your arguments and list are by miles more optimised on this and I of course will try to work on it a little more than now. Even if 'til now it hasn't been the bigger problem honestly have more hulls in the grand total will inevitably solidify my lsit, changing the target priority reflections for my opponents.

- The Rune Priest. I still consider necessary a psychic hood on the field and one time for all I'll try to explain shortly how I use him. In DoW it will enter in game in the first turn, joining the Rhinoed little unit already deployed out of LOS, advancing slowly during the furthers turns vs the 24" psychic bubble. In not DoW deployments it would already be deployed inside that Rhino and than act as written above.
Only the other troops will wait in reserves, not him for sure.

- Not playing at a 100% for tournaments setup allow me to take some "sentimental" choice in the list, more precisely the HB Long Fangs unit. No doubt on their better brothers with ML. It's really just a sentimental choice and I completely understand your critics on them.

- Of course the add of the TWC has completely changed the general behavior of the list, consequentely the Typhoons might now sound a little pricy for what they add. I still consider their job quitely useful when they will work just like Long Fangs in the first turn (shooting only Kraks on AV) and then fire on "opportunity" targets starting from the second turn (when, closing in depleted units or infantry disembarked from damaged vehicles, they may fire HB+Frag having moved 12" max).
Is this "duality" that make me love the HB/TML instead the just MM setup. Even if I completely understand the importance of those MM vs, as you pointed out, a dual raider list ie.

- The Heavy Flamers on the Dreads are another "love" choice. I like them, I alwais loved them and infact almost alwais found out a use for them in games. As you may underline they aren't alwais 100% effective but I alwais really appreciated the results vs Mobs and Nids large homrs/terms units ie. When I talk of rhino wall, I mean 2 of them. Basically a couple for flank. Having more hulls however could only help this technics. Again the armor saturation gain pts.

Well, I still have thousends of things in mind and I didn't evocate Troops for the moment because as promised I'll try to keep the replies shorter than usual.

Just let me tell you again, cowmonaut, that I thank you so much for the useful critics and again don't misanderstand me just becasue of my terrible english.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:I know this is off topic but I wish I could find a gif for the cat that keeps going "Oooh!" from Puss n boots when I see a wall of text like that...

It is a bad habit I need to work on. I tend to use too many words when trying to explain things, or try to explain too much. I actually didn't realize my previous post was quite that long when I was typing it. Hopefully some of what I was trying to say wasn't lost in the wall-o-text!

Toban wrote:- The Rune Priest. I still consider necessary a psychic hood on the field and one time for all I'll try to explain shortly how I use him. In DoW it will enter in game in the first turn, joining the Rhinoed little unit already deployed out of LOS, advancing slowly during the furthers turns vs the 24" psychic bubble. In not DoW deployments it would already be deployed inside that Rhino and than act as written above.
Only the other troops will wait in reserves, not him for sure.

But in those instances you only have the one Rhino with the Rune Priest. That's an easy enough nut to crack open. Sure, you have other vehicles, but if the enemy is relying on psychic powers the Rune Priest will be his priority. If he's not needing his psychic powers, the Rune Priest isn't really needed for the psychic defense.

Tack on the fact shooting at the Rune Priest is also shooting at a third of your scoring potential (and the only highly mobile one) and its just too juicy of a target against a good player.

Does that make sense why I think for this list it isn't an auto-include like with most?

Toban wrote:- Not playing at a 100% for tournaments setup allow me to take some "sentimental" choice in the list, more precisely the HB Long Fangs unit. No doubt on their better brothers with ML. It's really just a sentimental choice and I completely understand your critics on them.

That's fine so long as you know it might not be the best choice for your list going in. It also helps when you seek criticism on a list if you tell others what choices are for sentimental reasons.

Toban wrote:- Of course the add of the TWC has completely changed the general behavior of the list, consequentely the Typhoons might now sound a little pricy for what they add. I still consider their job quitely useful when they will work just like Long Fangs in the first turn (shooting only Kraks on AV) and then fire on "opportunity" targets starting from the second turn (when, closing in depleted units or infantry disembarked from damaged vehicles, they may fire HB+Frag having moved 12" max).
Is this "duality" that make me love the HB/TML instead the just MM setup. Even if I completely understand the importance of those MM vs, as you pointed out, a dual raider list ie.

And the TWC are part of the reason for the added Razorbacks by the way. Its easier to keep them healthy sometimes if they can hide behind some tin cans. But also keep in mind, the TWC are pure anti-infantry. So you don't really need that capability from the Land Speeders. You also have a fair amount of ranged anti-infantry from the rest of the army, so you do need some heavier guns. 4-5 TLLC work great but nothing beats Melta.

As always, in the end its up to you but if you use them smartly instead of just bull rushing some enemy tank I think you'll be pleased with the normal Land Speeders.

Toban wrote:- The Heavy Flamers on the Dreads are another "love" choice. I like them, I alwais loved them and infact almost alwais found out a use for them in games. As you may underline they aren't alwais 100% effective but I alwais really appreciated the results vs Mobs and Nids large homrs/terms units ie. When I talk of rhino wall, I mean 2 of them. Basically a couple for flank. Having more hulls however could only help this technics. Again the armor saturation gain pts.

Right, but your list has a total of 4 vehicles with the Rhino chassis. The 1 Rhino and the 1 Heavy Bolter Razorback are the only ones in your list that are cheap enough to sacrifice as a wall like that. The TLLC ones are better off hanging back so they can keep pew-pewing at vehicles and MCs. That's another reason for adding 3 more cheap transports.

Your list just doesn't have enough to use the tactic you are toting effectively. And again, it goes back to the Rune Priest comment earlier this post. You just put even more importance on the one Rhino squad, meaning the Rune Priest is going to be getting hit hard by the enemy.

Toban wrote:Well, I still have thousends of things in mind and I didn't evocate Troops for the moment because as promised I'll try to keep the replies shorter than usual.

Just let me tell you again, cowmonaut, that I thank you so much for the useful critics and again don't misanderstand me just becasue of my terrible english.

I'm trying not to misunderstand. Its times like this I really wish I spoke a dozen languages, but I can never seem to find the time to learn any more. Good luck with the list!