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So ive seen alot on this sight of people commenting that it is a bad idea to have a space wolves army that tries to go for the assault, with the idea being that it ruins the benifit of the counter attack. Now IMO i don't agree because if you assault your preventing them from getting the additional attacks and the counter attack is incase you dont get the attack and can even the playing field. What are your guys opinions about it? Personally i run an army similar to this with 3 drop pods with 10 guys in each thunderwolf calvary, ferenzian wolves, landraider crusaider with terminies etc. Mine is a get in the middle of the field file them into a corridor and destory them. What do you guys think?

Some people misunderstand the benefit of Counter Attack. All it means to me is flexibility. What it means to my opponent is that charging me is going to be more painful than usual.

Personally i'm starting to bring a Counts As Ragnar Blackmane to the table so I can benefit from Furious Charge. Initiative 5, Strength 6 Thunderwolf Cavalry sounds fun (hurray Warhowl!) and whats not to love about being able to have two models with Saga of the Warrior Born on the table?

That said, sometimes (when I'm not dealing with certain armies) its nice to just stand and shoot them down without having to charge into combat.

If you have a squad of 10 GH you have a fairly good chance of getting a +1 because of Counter Attack and you already have a +1 due to their CCW and Bolt Pistol combo.
If you are within 12" why wouldn't you Ripid Fire your Bolters?
You'd get 20 shots and if you get charged you have a decent chance of doing a large amount of damage in CC.
Though if you are getting FC then you should charge...

I look at it as being situational.

If the enemy unit is going to benefit greatly from getting the charge off (FC or some other crap) then take that away from them by going with bolt pistols/assault weapons firing first and assaulting.

If you can negate the bonus of an enemy by charging with enough rapid fire then rapid fire and absorb the reduced charge with counter-attack.

It is a balance of knowing when to rapid fire/absorb charge/counter-attack or if it is better to take away charge bonuses by assaulting.

Counter Charge is a nice bonus. But thats all it is. I do not build my army around it.

My army is an assault based army. I push forward and look to get stuck in. As such if movement gets me within 6-12" I'm more than willing to rapid fire and just wait for the outcome.

However, if I get to within less than 6" I'm charging every time. I get all of the bonuses the opponent gets none. If I'm lucky the combat wont end on my turn and I get protection from all of the enemies guns. Something the above rapid firing squad cannot claim to do.

I always assault when able and I tend to play aggressively to make that happen.

Thats what i was thinking its more like a nice bonus. Kinda like your always ready to fight. Its almost like taking away their +1 attack but instead just more damage all around ha.

It removes the necessity to think from the army. Planned you're moves right and got the charge? Good for you? Screwed it up? Nothing lost!

In a game essentially build around benefits and drawbacks of out-manovering and out-witting your opponent, army-wide Counter-attack negates the central incentive to even bother using your brain, hence why the sort of players that tend to flock to Space Wolves give the army and the hobby a bad name by and large.

Ouch thats pretty harsh isnt it? It still takes skill to win a game. just because someone puts a great army in front of you dosent mean youl do great. It just is a comforting back up in case something goes wrong. I mean deep strike, reserves, failed moral test anythign could lead to a hole in your plan and in that case you have a back up but to say that things like that mean you dont use your brain thats far to harsh and i do take offence to that.

Jayden63 wrote:Counter Charge is a nice bonus. But thats all it is. I do not build my army around it.

This, exactly. It certainly gives you flexibility. When you want to roll the dice, jump your guys out of a rhino and try to rapid fire away an opponent's squad, it gives you a chance of hitting them back if you flub your shots or they make insane saving throws and assault you the next turn.

It's just a few extra swings to make the opponent think twice about who he wants to assault. That's about it.

kronk wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Counter Charge is a nice bonus. But thats all it is. I do not build my army around it.

This, exactly. It certainly gives you flexibility. When you want to roll the dice, jump your guys out of a rhino and try to rapid fire away an opponent's squad, it gives you a chance of hitting them back if you flub your shots or they make insane saving throws and assault you the next turn.

It's just a few extra swings to make the opponent think twice about who he wants to assault. That's about it.

kronk wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Counter Charge is a nice bonus. But thats all it is. I do not build my army around it.

This, exactly. It certainly gives you flexibility. When you want to roll the dice, jump your guys out of a rhino and try to rapid fire away an opponent's squad, it gives you a chance of hitting them back if you flub your shots or they make insane saving throws and assault you the next turn.

It's just a few extra swings to make the opponent think twice about who he wants to assault. That's about it.

Thats honeslty what i was thinking its secure and a back up not like something you try to exploit because id be hard pressed to find a way to exploit it.

Zweischneid wrote:It removes the necessity to think from the army. Planned you're moves right and got the charge? Good for you? Screwed it up? Nothing lost!

In a game essentially build around benefits and drawbacks of out-manovering and out-witting your opponent, army-wide Counter-attack negates the central incentive to even bother using your brain, hence why the sort of players that tend to flock to Space Wolves give the army and the hobby a bad name by and large.

Wrong.

You don't rely on counter-attack when facing a BA unit with Sang Priest or a unit of Khorne Zerkers. You also have to make a decision when facing a mob of Orks on whether or not it is better to rapid fire and reduce a mob to let counter-attack clean-up the rest or assault to reduce the number of incoming attacks as well as removing the racial bonuses of an Ork assault.

Another vocal SW whiner among the many.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:It removes the necessity to think from the army. Planned you're moves right and got the charge? Good for you? Screwed it up? Nothing lost!

In a game essentially build around benefits and drawbacks of out-manovering and out-witting your opponent, army-wide Counter-attack negates the central incentive to even bother using your brain, hence why the sort of players that tend to flock to Space Wolves give the army and the hobby a bad name by and large.

Wrong.

You don't rely on counter-attack when facing a BA unit with Sang Priest or a unit of Khorne Zerkers. You also have to make a decision when facing a mob of Orks on whether or not it is better to rapid fire and reduce a mob to let counter-attack clean-up the rest or assault to reduce the number of incoming attacks as well as removing the racial bonuses of an Ork assault.

Another vocal SW whiner among the many.

There is no thinking about it. You assault. 8-10 more bolter shots (6 hits, 3 wounds, 2-3 dead orks) is not going to save your butt when they return with 40 shoota shoots and 60 attacks that hit on S4 instead of S3. Getting stuck in, keeping those orks at -1 attack and -1 strength is what is going to save your bacon. Also I've never once ever even rolled for counter attack against a Tau army so counter attack isn't useful against everybody.

The only real benefit from counter attack comes from when playing against and equally aggressive assault based army. Or you play mechanized. I will admit that it is nice that you can jump out of a rhino or drop pod and rapid fire your guns (because what else are you going to do? You can't launch your own assault) and then know that if the enemy charges you you get 5-10 extra attacks when they do. Yeah its spiffy, but not game breaking and thats if it works. I've failed quite a few counter attack tests in my games. Ld9 is not a guarantee.

Yeah especially because its not a guaranteed ive failed a few LD tests myself and then your out to dry. But since i have 3 drop pods in my army. It can become very helpful. I guess it just depends on the army

Flamebaiting is rude and against DakkaDakka Rule Number One. Please avoid this in future. Thanks! ~Manchu

Whats ^^^ that all about??

Personally, I agree. I think that counter-attack is great for when you get assaulted but in my eyes it should be preferable that you get the assault, as you say it means that they don't get the charge for the extra attack(s), furious charge etc.

totentanzen wrote:Whats ^^^ that all about??

Just ignore Zweischneid. He has Preferred Enemy: Phil Kelly and Rage USR