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I posted this in 40k general but probably should have posted it here. I'm curious on how most big tournament events (Wargamescon, Nova, Adepticon, 'ard boyz, etc.) handle WYSIWYG

The only answer I've found so far is this one short paragraph from the Wargamescon 40k rule pack:

"The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect. That means all units must be easily identifiable as the particular codex choice they represent and that any and all weapons/options taken for a unit must be clearly represented on the model(s). Inaccurate and confusing models can be removed from the board at any point and for the duration of the game, at your opponent’s discretion."

(bold emphasis mine)

How does this work with strange things like:

Night Shields
Flicker Fields
Vectored Engines
Enhanced Sails
Armor Plates
Cybork Bodies
Red Paint Job (easy enough to do, but I can't magnetize a paint job to give me flexibility)
Librarian Psycher powers

The list goes on and on. That is just a quick list of things that I could think of off the top of my head. Those are definitely "options taken" per the Adepticon FAQ, but some of them seem a bit silly to model.

I'm not looking for a debate on WYSIWYG and how it does or doesn't ruin the hobby. I'm just looking for information from people that are familiar with major event WYSIWYG rulings and wargear that isn't as clear cut as weapon upgrades. I know it ultimately comes down the your opponent and the TO but I'd appreciate any personal experiences in this regard that anyone may have to share. Thanks

I've never heard of anyone enforcing potentially invisible things like fields or Psyker powers.

Enhanced Sails and Vectored engines are a weird one - they don't specify what they should look like above 'normal' sails or engines. There IS a conversion part for vectored engines but I'm not sure anyone would recognise them.

The rest are quite obvious and I would guess fall under WYSIWYG...

You can't figure out cybork bodies, armor plating or red paint? You are not entitled to removable upgrades, sometimes you just choose what you may use the most and stick with it.

GWs definitions:

GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

GW defines COUNTS AS: The 'Counts As' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within our rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

Reposting your sig actually did nothing to address his question nkelsch.

To the OP (with something that actually attempts to address what he said), I haven't seen anyone called out on not 'correctly' modelling ambiguous upgrades like that, and I've never personally seen anyone called out for not physically representing grenades on every model, etc.

Thanks for the helpful information so far. My list wasn't designed to be comprehensive, nor are all the items as clear as others. I've seen many comments to WYSIWYG as mainly applying to weapon upgrades. The bright lance is not a scatter laser seems to come to mind.

nkelsch wrote:You can't figure out cybork bodies, armor plating or red paint? You are not entitled to removable upgrades, sometimes you just choose what you may use the most and stick with it.

GWs definitions:

GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

GW defines COUNTS AS: The 'Counts As' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within our rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

Do you have any actual experience with grand tournament WYSIWYG rulings or are you just showboating?

I'm hoping to get input on how major events tend to handle this issue in practice, not in theory. Thanks

GW doesnt run any of those events is the problem.. I would check out the rules posted by the actual TOs since there is a vast difference between 'ard boyz which are classified as Lazy GW events (IE they post the rules and you do the work), ACTUAL GW events (??) and the rest of the events

Not sure what the threshold for large events is, but I continually run 40-60 person events and I tend to allow anything that I authorize prior and isnt confusing based on the person's army. Its subjective, but Im very upfront with what Ill most likely allow and no one has ever tested my patience so it seems to work well enough

GWs rules are guidelines that mean if you follow them you'll be let into virtually every event.

Im sure some people in this thread won't agree but I personally define "counts as" as meaning "Using another similar model with incorrect wargear to count as the option you are using, as long as ALL versions of that similar model counts as the option in your army list" Basically, if you use lascannons as missile launchers on space marines then all your lascannons on space marines MUST be missile launchers in your army list.. Granted you wont win any painting prizes doing this

Like I said in the years and years ive run events not a single person has really abused this to a point Ive had to crack down

Ive applied this rule to Ard Boyz events and other 50 person events.

haendas wrote:Thanks for the helpful information so far. My list wasn't designed to be comprehensive, nor are all the items as clear as others. I've seen many comments to WYSIWYG as mainly applying to weapon upgrades. The bright lance is not a scatter laser seems to come to mind.

nkelsch wrote:You can't figure out cybork bodies, armor plating or red paint? You are not entitled to removable upgrades, sometimes you just choose what you may use the most and stick with it.

GWs definitions:

GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

GW defines COUNTS AS: The 'Counts As' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within our rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

Do you have any actual experience with grand tournament WYSIWYG rulings or are you just showboating?

I'm hoping to get input on how major events tend to handle this issue in practice, not in theory. Thanks

That's what GW posted in the rules for their Throne of Skulls events.

In practice, most players and tournaments are fairly flexible. If in doubt, it's often best to speak to the organizer ahead of time and get their okay. Adepticon has a more detailed and fleshed-out Model Policy, which includes an email to which you can submit photos of unusual scratchbuilds or conversions for advance approval.

http://www.adepticon.org/12rules/2012modelpolicy.pdf

If you read the text, you'll find that it's pretty strict. They talk about ALL upgrades having to be represented. That being said, in practice even big events like Adepticon are pretty relaxed. The rules are written strictly in part so that they can easily be used if a player is found to be pulling a fast one, playing shell games with upgrades or otherwise engaging in deceptive behavior.

Most of the time upgrades which would be invisible or not easily modeled are not strictly held to being physically represented. That being said, a lot of players take this as a modeling challenge and at least use paint, or creative converting, to make some kind of representation which can be identified by an opponent looking at the model. When I was playing Eldar, for example, I placed little bits on my Falcon hulls which represented Holofield projectors, and I converted little retro-thrusters under the hull to represent Vectored Engines.

If worse comes to worst and you can't come up with anything else, having your vehicles have colored symbols or numbers on them, and clearly numbering/labeling them in your army list so your opponent can refer to it during the game and easily see which ones have Night Shields and which don't (as an example) works too.

Counts as for tourneys has never meant your las cannons are missile launchers. That has never been acceptable at any wysiwyg enforced event I have ever seen.

I have 10 grotsnik torsos I got when I could get metal per weight and those are the base of the cybork nobz. When I want cybork bodies, I use those. When I dont, I use my other ones.

nkelsch wrote:Counts as for tourneys has never meant your las cannons are missile launchers. That has never been acceptable at any wysiwyg enforced event I have ever seen.

I have 10 grotsnik torsos I got when I could get metal per weight and those are the base of the cybork nobz. When I want cybork bodies, I use those. When I dont, I use my other ones.

Dont mistake a policy based on some leniency with one of absolute allowance. Its designed to allow someone who is missing a few models to participate in the event with the army they want to use. Not to let someone proxy an entire force. When I say "all you XXX must count as YYY" it doesn't mean to take 50 of them.

Every rule has degrees of enforcement and as others have said.. the reality of it is that most tournaments dont have a 0 tolerance policy anyhow

Nobody cares about things like extra armor, or spirit stones, vectored/star engines, frag/krak grenades, and what not. As long as the points add up and its in the list youre good. What you do want to always have wysiwyg are things like your models actual armor. So marines in power armor on 40mm dont count as terminators, weapons are all wysiwyg, and conversions are consistent and easy to understand.

Eidolon wrote:Nobody cares about things like extra armor, or spirit stones, vectored/star engines, frag/krak grenades, and what not. As long as the points add up and its in the list youre good. What you do want to always have wysiwyg are things like your models actual armor. So marines in power armor on 40mm dont count as terminators, weapons are all wysiwyg, and conversions are consistent and easy to understand.

Eidolon has it on the head. I do lots of conversions and I always tell the organisers up front, before I buy a ticket, and have never had a problem. The rule of cool does definitely apply - the majority of people, but maybe not TFG, love the hobby and want to play against exciting looking models. If you make it clear before each battle which models represent what most people should be ok, and the organisers have already bought into. I'd certainly be cool with it - but then I've never won a tournament so I may not be the best person to ask.

Jamumools wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Nobody cares about things like extra armor, or spirit stones, vectored/star engines, frag/krak grenades, and what not. As long as the points add up and its in the list youre good. What you do want to always have wysiwyg are things like your models actual armor. So marines in power armor on 40mm dont count as terminators, weapons are all wysiwyg, and conversions are consistent and easy to understand.

Eidolon has it on the head. I do lots of conversions and I always tell the organisers up front, before I buy a ticket, and have never had a problem. The rule of cool does definitely apply - the majority of people, but maybe not TFG, love the hobby and want to play against exciting looking models. If you make it clear before each battle which models represent what most people should be ok, and the organisers have already bought into. I'd certainly be cool with it - but then I've never won a tournament so I may not be the best person to ask.

I put in bold the portion I liked from what you said. I've not had the chance to make it to a big tournament yet, but, I do a bunch of local games and I am not the biggest WYSIWYG enforcer (though most of my units are spot on). As you noted, so long as someone playing against me goes "Hey, this is my blah and this is my blah, this here is HQ so-and-so" I am cool with it, doesn't matter to me so much so long as the models look cool and we are blowing the heck out of each other (hopefully with me passing my armor saves and his units failing though ^_~).

For red paint job if anyone give your grief just say your Orks are color blind

If vehicles have different upgrades, they should be represented or visually-identified in some way. If half of your vehicles have the Red Paint Job upgrade and half don't, there should be some visual way for me to look across and tell which are which.

Kirasu wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Counts as for tourneys has never meant your las cannons are missile launchers. That has never been acceptable at any wysiwyg enforced event I have ever seen.

I have 10 grotsnik torsos I got when I could get metal per weight and those are the base of the cybork nobz. When I want cybork bodies, I use those. When I dont, I use my other ones.

Dont mistake a policy based on some leniency with one of absolute allowance. Its designed to allow someone who is missing a few models to participate in the event with the army they want to use. Not to let someone proxy an entire force. When I say "all you XXX must count as YYY" it doesn't mean to take 50 of them.

Every rule has degrees of enforcement and as others have said.. the reality of it is that most tournaments dont have a 0 tolerance policy anyhow

I never seen any but poorly run hard boyz allow straight up proxying of las cannons as missile launchers.

I have seen numerous models disqualified or forced to play 'as they are' not 'how I want to proxy them as'.

Always ask your TO before you show up with a model, make sure the level of leniency you are expecting is going to be allowed.

In the case of such upgrades, I think the main point is to be coherent as to which unit has it and which unit does not.

For instance, let's say you use 3 serpents, only two of which have star engines.
In this case, you should clearly identify it, both in your army list (identifying a detail in the paint....) and on the model (distinct colours on the engines, a token on the model during the game...).
It is not stricly required usually, but makes the game go smoother and avoids the "what ? this serpent has star engines ? I thought it was the other one".

In my case, I have various variants of rhinos (previous version, current version, and magnetized ones based on vindicators), and I usually try to use the models according to such upgrades if I take any.

Best option is and always will be to talk to the TO's running the events you're attending.

star engines/vectored engines have bits in the fire prism kit. armored plates is easy enough to model with plastic card stock, with some wire anplastic rod and creativity you have cybokr bodies, and if you dont want to paint the entirety of your trukk red, flames and racing stripes are easy enough to do.
BUT, in my experience, most people do not give a flying frack. i make a point of what upgrades you have as long as what youre telling them coincides with your army list.
i agree with nkelsh: youre not entitled to removable upgrades. i know times are tough, but sometimes when you want the cool toys in your army you just have to say to yourself 'well, i guess this unit will have to ALWAYS have this upgrade' Kudos if you want to spend the time and effort making your entire army this magnetized customizeable force, good for you. BUT.... model and play to model and play, dont focus on winning tourneys and waving your d*** around, cuz nobody will be impressed pal.

mikhaila wrote:Best option is and always will be to talk to the TO's running the events you're attending.

mike hits it on the head. When in doubt check with the TO.

I've always wondered this about Relic Blades as it states that the model carrying a Relic Blade must have a suitably venerated weapon but who the hell has the right to tell me what a Relic Blade could or should look like?

Saying a Relic Blade has to look ornate and such means they're looking to keep things fluffy, but what if I've got a regular looking Power-Axe with a well written fluffy background regarding it? Contradictory to me.

M.Spore for tryanids. Most people have model that are not GW50 or not as they have no model for it. How does that work at the big tournaments?

Thanks for all of the on topic responses.

From what I can gather here, most people seem to be pretty forgiving on these types of upgrades, at least with the invisible ones like fields and psyker powers.

What Mannahnin said about modeling all upgrades or designating them in some way when all of those models do not have the same load out seems like the most important thing to me. It is pretty easy to look at a list and see that everything has flicker fields and not require the modeler to represent them. On the other hand if only 1 ravager has them and 2 do not, it would probably be a good idea to represent that in some way on the model. It appears that in most circumstances, opponents and TOs would agree with that stance. Would this apply to librarians or farseers with different powers? How would you model "this farseer has doom, this one has guide, fortune and spirit stones"? Per the Adepticon modeling FAQ, those are definitely options taken and need to be modeled, and if the load out is not identical for all models on the table, some people think they should be designated in some way. Freehand "Dooooom!" on the base? That probably works but won't win any painting and modeling awards. Or are psyker powers a complete exception while some other upgrades like vehicle fields are not? What about other invisible upgrades, 2 Archon in a list but only 1 is given the combat drugs upgrade for example, or a shadow field or a clone field?

From what I've read, there seems to be a lot of leeway for some things (grenades) and less for others (weapons). I'm just trying to filter out information for upgrades that aren't discussed as often so I can better prepare myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zedsdead wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Best option is and always will be to talk to the TO's running the events you're attending.

mike hits it on the head. When in doubt check with the TO.

That is clearly the best option, and should be fairly obvious, but is not the topic being discussed. If I had a specific event planned, I would follow this advice but I'm just looking for generic information at the moment. Anyone queueing up a "all TOs are different" response should save their time. Generic information so that I can get a general feel for the issue is totally ok with me. Thanks

I don't think there's a solution for modelling psyker powers. If you make it a point to note the powers to your opponent at the start of the game, that is generally something they will remember, as it usually effects the game a lot.

It isn't a big deal with one librarian, as thats easy to remember. It starts getting bothersome with two, each with different powers. Even then, as long as you let the opponent know in the beginning, and make it available to him at any time, it won't be a problem. What I mean by that is if he asks during the game, don't be a dick and say he should have remembered, just let him know since it's not evident on the modle