Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Hey Dakkanauts.

Quick question regarding the points costs of Master-Crafted Weapons. This question is more specific towards the Witch Hunters and Black Templars Codex, which read as:

WH:

"The upgrade cost of 15 points is added to the normal cost of the weapon but only the upgrade cost is taken against the points limit on Wargear taken by the model (so a Master-Crafted weapon costs 25 points but counts as only 15 points against a character's Wargear limit)."

Seriously, what? o.o

Basically, I'm taking my Canoness with a Blessed Weapon and Master-Crafted Inferno Pistol but when adding up her points value I have no idea what the actual value of the Master-Crafted Inferno Pistol is.
Is it 15+15? Or is it 15?

The Black Templar Codex entry is just as mystifying:

"The cost listed in the Wargear section is in addition to the weapon itself (E.G, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon costs 15+15=30 pts).
However, only the upgrade costs are taken against the 100 points limit on Wargear for a model (so the Master-Crafted Power Weapon above would count as 15 points against the 100 points limit, not 30 points)."

WHAT THE F-?

Someone help me out here, because it reads as if it's completely contradicting itself by saying "you add the cost of it being Master-Crafted which is 15 points and then take that 15 points away against the Wargear point limit". So wouldn't that mean that taking a Master-Crafted upgrade is technically FREE? How the hell does that work?
Surely, that's not the case?
Dammit, these Codex things are badly written @_@

In the old codexes charectors were allowed a certain amounts of points in wargear.
For example your captain is allowed 50 points of wargear, so he can take a custard gun for 35 points, a power weapon for 15 points, and then he can make that power-weapon master-crafted for another 15 points. In total that's 65 points, but the master-crafting 15 isn't counted towards his total.
You still pay actual points costs for them, obviously.

Joey wrote:In the old codexes charectors were allowed a certain amounts of points in wargear.
For example your captain is allowed 50 points of wargear, so he can take a custard gun for 35 points, a power weapon for 15 points, and then he can make that power-weapon master-crafted for another 15 points. In total that's 65 points, but the master-crafting 15 isn't counted towards his total.
You still pay actual points costs for them, obviously.

Okay, sorry, maybe I'm a bit slow but... What?

So, you're saying that if I exceed the 100 point limit, you minus the 15 points and don't I count it? o.o

Or are you saying I still count it towards TOTAL cost when writing an Army List but the 15 points doesn't go against the 100 point limit, meaning I can exceed 100 points making it technically 115 points of Wargear as long as I count it as a TOTAL?

That would make sense >_>

EDIT: Epic typos are epic.

I think what he is saying is the cost of the Mastercraft counts towards your total army cost, but not the total wargear cost a model can take.

Also Codex:Witch Hunters is out-of-date. You want to use The new Sisters of Battle White Dwarf codex.

Joey wrote:In the old codexes charectors were allowed a certain amounts of points in wargear.
For example your captain is allowed 50 points of wargear, so he can take a custard gun for 35 points, a power weapon for 15 points, and then he can make that power-weapon master-crafted for another 15 points. In total that's 65 points, but the master-crafting 15 isn't counted towards his total.
You still pay actual points costs for them, obviously.

Actually, it's the other way around: models can take 100pts of wargear, but this does NOT include weapons. The 15pts for master crafting counts towards your wargear limit, but the base weapon cost does not.

If you look on the Armoury page of your codex (obviously this only applies to older codices which still have an Armoury), you'll see it's split into different sub-lists. Weapons and Wargear are completely separate lists, so the 100pt limitation only applies to items taken from the Wargear list. When you master craft something, you add 15pts to the cost of the weapon, making a master-crafted power weapon (in the case of WH) 25pts. The rule was simply to clarify that only the 15pts from the master crafting upgrade counts towards the Wargear limit, but the weapon it applies to does not.

This is why I much prefer the current codex layout. Good riddance to the old Armoury system - if you can, have a read of the 3.5 Chaos Codex and try to wrap your head around that one...

But yes, as Hellstorm said, the WH codex has been superseded by Codex: Sisters of Battle in White Dwarf.

Hellstorm wrote:Also Codex:Witch Hunters is out-of-date. You want to use The new Sisters of Battle White Dwarf codex.

Codex Update? What Codex Update? *Shifty eyes*

No, but seriously that "update" sucks some serious butt. I lol'd when I read through it.
I'll still to the Codex until hey pull their finger out and update that instead.
Witch Hunters got pretty shafted with that White Dwarf thing and besides, using that is optional to the Codex so yeah


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheexsta wrote:

Joey wrote:In the old codexes charectors were allowed a certain amounts of points in wargear.
For example your captain is allowed 50 points of wargear, so he can take a custard gun for 35 points, a power weapon for 15 points, and then he can make that power-weapon master-crafted for another 15 points. In total that's 65 points, but the master-crafting 15 isn't counted towards his total.
You still pay actual points costs for them, obviously.

Actually, it's the other way around: models can take 100pts of wargear, but this does NOT include weapons. The 15pts for master crafting counts towards your wargear limit, but the base weapon cost does not.

If you look on the Armoury page of your codex (obviously this only applies to older codices which still have an Armoury), you'll see it's split into different sub-lists. Weapons and Wargear are completely separate lists, so the 100pt limitation only applies to items taken from the Wargear list. When you master craft something, you add 15pts to the cost of the weapon, making a master-crafted power weapon (in the case of WH) 25pts. The rule was simply to clarify that only the 15pts from the master crafting upgrade counts towards the Wargear limit, but the weapon it applies to does not.

This is why I much prefer the current codex layout. Good riddance to the old Armoury system - if you can, have a read of the 3.5 Chaos Codex and try to wrap your head around that one...

But yes, as Hellstorm said, the WH codex has been superseded by Codex: Sisters of Battle in White Dwarf.

Righty, so where it says "the Heroine may be given any equipment allowed from the Witch Hunters Armoury" this means what...?

I mean, does that cost of the Blessed Weapon and Inferno Pistol count against the 100 points for WARGEAR or do I just add that to the models cost + still have 100 points free for Wargear upgrades?

Also, no flame for the "Witch Hunters White Dwarf update sucks plox" please.
It's my opinion

It may be your opinion, but since a new codex has been released, the older book is no longer legal in tournaments.

the weapons DO NOT count towards your 100 points but DO count toward the army total.

Knights-Abhorrent wrote:]

Righty, so where it says "the Heroine may be given any equipment allowed from the Witch Hunters Armoury" this means what...?

I mean, does that cost of the Blessed Weapon and Inferno Pistol count against the 100 points for WARGEAR or do I just add that to the models cost + still have 100 points free for Wargear upgrades?

Also, no flame for the "Witch Hunters White Dwarf update sucks plox" please.
It's my opinion

The model may purchase upgrades from the Armoury. The Wargear list is only a subset of the Armoury, so only upgrades from that specific list are limited to 100pts total value. This means that weapons and anything else that is not under the "Wargear" subheading do NOT count towards the 100pt limit.

And of course, all of the points for the upgrades get added to your model's total points cost. So if you have a 60pt model with 20pts of weapons and 90pts of wargear, it will come to 170pts (I don't have the WH codex on me, so this is just a rough example).

As for codex legality, of course you are free to do what you want with your friends, so ignore everyone here who is telling you to use the WD list.

Thanks everyone for helping me clear this up!

The reason I don't want to use that White Dwarf stuff is pretty simple.
For one, they pretty much nerf everything.
Two, I bought the Codex only a month or so before the "update" in WD, so am reluctant to accept them.
Three, publishing an "update" in a monthly magazine that not everyone buys is actually hilarious.

I can't understand it to be honest.
They didn't release anything new for Witch Hunters and only one character was upgraded to Finecast and that was Karamazov...

OH BUT HANG ON! he isn't even included in the "update"!
Someone seriously dropped the ball with this stuff.

I'm of the opinion that if they wanted to update Witch Hunters then they should have just published a new Codex and updated the models just like they did with Necrons and Grey Knights...

But, wait a second... Wasn't Grey Knights a follow-up from the Daemonhunters Codex? Eh... Now there's an interesting thought o.o

Hellstorm wrote:It may be your opinion, but since a new codex has been released, the older book is no longer legal in tournaments.

It depends on the tournament. There are sometimes tournaments that allow old codexes to be used, some even still run on old editions

But, yes, generally you have to use the latest codex, and SoB means that WH is no longer considered "standard".


And, to the OP: Yeah, the SoB WD codex was pretty lame. They didn't update models, which is also lame. But, unfortunately, in most random pickup games, your opponents will expect you to use it. So, either stick to playing with your friends that allow it, or be prepared to discuss with a random opponent why you want to use it.