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Don't have a rulebook handy and someone just asked me a question. Wanted to clarify to make sure I explained it correctly.

Unit A would like to assault Unit B. Unit C attempted to run to get between A and B, but only managed to get partially in the way. Unit C is at maximum coherency (I.E. 2" between each 1" base).

Unit A declares it's assault on Unit B. Because this is an assault move, they are allowed to ignore the 1" rule and can pass through the 2" coherency of Unit C (If possible), because the gap is wider than their base. Question - Can any models from Unit A, unable to achieve B2B with Unit B, but still following all assault move rules, end their assault move within 1" of unit C without multi-assaulting, yes or no?

If no - This means if unit C is within 1" of Unit A, Unit B cannot achieve B2B with Unit A within 1" of Unit C. This sounds incorrect to me.

If yes - This means that Unit A can potentially surround a model of Unit C without being in B2B with it and following all assault rules for engaging Unit B. This sounds incorrect to me.

Both answers lead to a situation which seems wrong. Obviously not being able to assault through coherency stops the whole situation. A page ref would be appreciated so I can check it out when I get home.

1) Setup
2) Assaulting without breaking unit C coherency but ignoring the 1" rule
3) Assaulting through coherency of unit C but maintaining 1" gap after assault moves are finished
4) Assaulting through coherency of unit C but ignoring 1" gap after assault moves are finished

IIRC you can not move through another unit. While an assault allows you to ignore the 1" rule (I'm sure that might only be in regardss to the unit being assaulted) I don't believe you are allowed to assault through another unit.

However it there was room for unit A to move around unit C and still make it into assault then it would be allowed. I believe in this case you should still mantain the 1" rule.

I could be very wrong on this though, I don't have a BRB on me ATM

optimusprime14 wrote:IIRC you can not move through another unit. While an assault allows you to ignore the 1" rule (I'm sure that might only be in regardss to the unit being assaulted) I don't believe you are allowed to assault through another unit.

However it there was room for unit A to move around unit C and still make it into assault then it would be allowed. I believe in this case you should still mantain the 1" rule.

I could be very wrong on this though, I don't have a BRB on me ATM

That was another concern, but I'm almost 100% sure you can, I distinctly remember a TO ruling against me in that situation vs a bike army almost a year ago.

If you can't move through coherency, but ignore the 1" rule, then you can stack up on them very closely.

I'm adding a pic to the op for clarification

1-2 is fine as long as you remained 1" away from the red unit

In short, yes, you are allowed to end up within 1" of a unit you are not assaulting, as the assault rules allows you to come within 1" of enemies.

DeathReaper wrote:In short, yes, you are allowed to end up within 1" of a unit you are not assaulting, as the assault rules allows you to come within 1" of enemies.

Right, but does it allow you to pass through coherency, and if so, how do you handle surrounding a model?

It does not restrict you from moving through the gaps in a unit, as long as your base could fit through.

If you surround a model, then you surround a model. that model can not move in the movement phase if it is totally surrounded, as it does not have space to move.

Chances are that casualties and Pile in moves will being you out of surrounding the model.

Page 34 details moving assaulting unis.

DeathReaper wrote:It does not restrict you from moving through the gaps in a unit, as long as your base could fit through.

If you surround a model, then you surround a model. that model can not move in the movement phase if it is totally surrounded, as it does not have space to move.

Chances are that casualties and Pile in moves will being you out of surrounding the model.

Page 34 details moving assaulting unis.

It was brought up because of a situation with Genestealers being spread out over a great distance, over terrain so the assault move left many behind and the pile in really constricted the 'noose', so to speak.

Both players were unaware of how to react, thus the question.

Interesting, alebit rare, situation, that creates a sort of paradox.

The unit is not allowed to move within 1" of an enemy unit, but cannot move away. Are they not allowed to move at all, as any move would be an illegal move?

Thanks for the page number

Traceoftoxin wrote:

The unit is not allowed to move within 1" of an enemy unit, but cannot move away. Are they not allowed to move at all, as any move would be an illegal move?

This seems like the answer to you "paradox".

Yes they are not allowed to move at all, unless casualties and pile in/fall back moves made it possible to move.

The could assault though.

I think the answer is that since you assault blue towards black you have to go with picture 2 unless you want to have a mulitple assault.

liturgies of blood wrote:I think the answer is that since you assault blue towards black you have to go with picture 2 unless you want to have a mulitple assault.

There is nothing that supports this though.

We're allowed to ignore unit coherency during assault moves.
We're allowed to ignore the 1" rule during assault moves.
We must attempt to get as many models involved in combat as possible.

This results in us surrounding the intervening model, and then creates a paradox where that unit may or not be able to move depending on how your group interprets it.

what you fail to realise is that you HAVE to pile in at the end of the assault phase, which means that model will no longer be surrounded.....nice try

Traceoftoxin wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:I think the answer is that since you assault blue towards black you have to go with picture 2 unless you want to have a mulitple assault.

There is nothing that supports this though.

We're allowed to ignore unit coherency during assault moves.
We're allowed to ignore the 1" rule during assault moves.
We must attempt to get as many models involved in combat as possible.

This results in us surrounding the intervening model, and then creates a paradox where that unit may or not be able to move depending on how your group interprets it.

Sorry here is my support, pg 34 paragraph 2. "....This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower then their base, and may not move into base to base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting." That means that you can't pass through the red squad unless you want to assault them. So if you move in anoy other way then option 2 above you have to be in cc with the two squads.

Liturgies, that passage states specifically that the assaulting models can't cross enemy bases, nor pass through gaps "narrower than their base". So they most certainly CAN pass through as long as the gaps are wider than their bases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traceoftoxin wrote:We're allowed to ignore unit coherency during assault moves.

Not true, but I think you meant something else.

Those are two seperate clauses, as this is a british company I will assume they are using correct grammar and rules as written means that those are two seperate restirictions that you have conflated into one. I read it exactly as you cannot move through models to make an assault. When talking about moving though friendly units in the movement rules it states that you may not move through friendly models.

The gaps smaller then their base is to do with how you move through terrain, ie a TWC model cannot move through a gap in terrain 30mm wide to assault, but the moving through enemy models clause takes greater standing as it comes first.

By "through enemy models" they mean exactly that. You can't move through the space occupied by their base.

If they meant you can't move through the gaps, they wouldn't have said you can't move through enemy UNITS, and there would have been no cause at all to specify that you can't move through gaps narrower than your base.

If you are correct why did they not say, may not move through friendly or enemy units unless the gap is wide enough for their base?
I see three seperate clauses in that sentence, may not move through models/ move through gaps/ only in base to base with units you are assaulting. I see them as relating to different issues of an assault movement: models, terrain and valid assault moves.

Remember that move through models can mean move between/amongst them when applied to a plural noun, "I walked through the crowds". If they said you may not move through A model then I would say you are right.
As I see it, what we are arguing over is that there are differences between the every day use of words in the British Isles and the States.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if you look at the next paragraph, it says that you go around impassible terrain, friendly models and enemy models not being assaulted.

liturgies of blood wrote:If you are correct why did they not say, may not move through friendly or enemy units unless the gap is wide enough for their base?

They did...

I see three seperate clauses in that sentence, may not move through models/ move through gaps/ only in base to base with units you are assaulting. I see them as relating to different issues of an assault movement: models, terrain and valid assault moves.

They are all separate things. Moving through the gaps between models is not the same as moving through the models. So you may not move through other models. You are also forbidden from moving through gaps smaller than your base. There is no restriction, however, on moving through gaps between models if they are large enough for your model's base.

Remember that move through models can mean move between/amongst them when applied to a plural noun, "I walked through the crowds". If they said you may not move through A model then I would say you are right.

That would be moving through the unit, not moving through the models.

You can walk through a crowd. You can't walk through people.

Then why in the next paragraph does it say you have to move around enemy units not being assaulted?

I am not going to get into the definition of a word any more as english is defined by it's use but people is not a good example of a pluarl noun as you can have many different peoples.

liturgies of blood wrote:Then why in the next paragraph does it say you have to move around enemy units not being assaulted?

It doesn't. It says you can't move into contact with enemy models not being assaulted.

I see where you are coming from but I disagree. That is the next clause you make reference to.

The closest model to an enemy is chosen going around terrain and units you aren't assaulting to figure that distance. If you could assault through a unit then why would you measure around it?

It doesn't say that. It says you go around enemy MODELS in units you aren't assaulting.

You can disagree, but Insaniak and Mannahin are 100% correct.

You are given permission to make an assault move and you are allowed to move through the gaps in a unit as long as the gap is as wide as your base.

There is nothing restricting you from assaulting through another unit, as long as you follow all the assaulting bullet points.

liturgies of blood wrote:I see where you are coming from but I disagree. That is the next clause you make reference to.

The closest model to an enemy is chosen going around terrain and units you aren't assaulting to figure that distance. If you could assault through a unit then why would you measure around it?

Because you can't go through a MODEL, but you can go through a UNIT. There's a huge distinction between the two.

Mannahnin wrote:

Traceoftoxin wrote:We're allowed to ignore unit coherency during assault moves.

Not true, but I think you meant something else.

I meant the enemy coherency, not your own. You still have to follow the rules for assault moves and maintain coherency, which you know and I'm guessing you knew what I meant. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Hukoseft wrote:what you fail to realise is that you HAVE to pile in at the end of the assault phase, which means that model will no longer be surrounded.....nice try

You do realize you can spread 20 Genestealers out REALLY far, and you can still end up in that position after 12" of movement, right?

@OP

simple answer is yes.

Although this is a part of the rules that is sometimes problematic, because the enemy's model that is now within 1" of yours is now nailed if you follow the exact rules because he is not permitted to move closer than 1" to enemy models. Because he already is within <1" of the enemy he can't be allowed to do so.

Same applies to vehicles. They are able to turn (given that it is infantry within 1"...) or tank shock/ram but if you are clearly following the rules, they are not able to move normally.

A rammed vehicle is even worse. It is only allowed to ram straight into the direction if there is no enemy vehicle contacting the front. Why?

It can not pivot on the spot, because it would move over a model then, it can not tank shock because it automatically stops being <1" to an enemy vehicle model and it cannot move because it is already within <1" to an enemy model.

So I personally would houserule that you are allowed to move "out of <1" " freely unless you have to move through a gap narrower than your base or you are locked.

In your case: the surrounded model is nailed, the rest is free to move maintaining coherency of course.