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Wow, okay, I had to pop into YMDC with this muuuuch sooner than I thought. (playing against the relevant opponent tomorrow, as it turns out).

Anyway, Mob Rule vs Mind War.

The situation: Mind War targets a Nob within a unit of boyz.

Can the Nob, as an individual model, use Mob Rule to make his leadership 10?

Now like a good little forumite I've done my research, but unfortunately a clean and clinical answer avoids my grasp. As such, I've seen the following arguments:

The Arguments Against:

*Mob Rule states that the "mob" may replace its leadership with the number of Orks within the unit, but says nothing on individual units being able to do so. Thus, only an entire unit may choose to do this, rather than a single model within that unit.

*The case of the weirdboy is an exception to the rule, specifically given allowance to use Mob Rule to increase his Leadership when using psychic tests.


The Arguments For:
*Units themselves do not have a Leadership value. Only models within the unit have Leadership values. The term "testing a unit's leadership" is shorthand for having the unit perform a leadership test under the normal circumstances - using the highest leadership within the unit. As such, Mob Rule does not alter the unit's leadership per se, but increases the leadership of each model within the unit. As such, any model within the unit may claim Mob Rule, even when targeted specifically.

*Weirdboy entry is written in a way to serve as a reminder that this can be done, rather than stating it as an exception for the Weirdboy - heavily implying that this can be used by any model within a unit.


Now, I'm looking for arguments both for and against - If I'm going to be bringing this up in a game with against a rules lawyer, I'd ideally like to know what to expect in retaliation.

What are YOUR opinions on this matter? Your thoughts on the Arguments For and Against? I'm looking for something I can use to have my opponent understand, since I'd rather not assume he will just accept.

I thought Mob Rule changed the Leadership for the purpose of Leadership tests. I don't have the Ork codex at hand however, so I am likely wrong.

Happyjew wrote:I thought Mob Rule changed the Leadership for the purpose of Leadership tests. I don't have the Ork codex at hand however, so I am likely wrong.

To quote the codex:

Orks may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value

No restriction on only using it for Leadership checks

The quote is your answer.
"May Always"
I'd say yes he can.

marv335 wrote:The quote is your answer.
"May Always"
I'd say yes he can.

Ah, but the quote refers to the mob, not individuals. As I pointed out in my OP

I had the same conversation about 6 months ago. I was playing Eldar btw. Anyway the argument ended with this. Normally psykers use the LD value of the model when rolling for psyker tests. Yet ork psykers use the mob rule to determine their LD value, without the mob rule specifically saying so. So I conceded that each model can use the mob rule individually.

Kharrak wrote:

marv335 wrote:The quote is your answer.
"May Always"
I'd say yes he can.

Ah, but the quote refers to the mob, not individuals. As I pointed out in my OP

However, when the entire mob has increased it's leadership using the rule each individual model in it is counted at that same leadership value. It's a moment of everything in the unit is LD 10, so the individual ld of the model must be 10.

Units don't have a leadership, models do. Units use the highest value of a model in the unit. Every individual ork becomes ld10 because only models have leadership. It is pretty clear. To read it any other way requires making up rules for "unit" stats which dont exist.

A mob does not have a stat line; each individual boy in the mob does.

So when you replace the Ld value, every boyz stat line is altered, hence Mind War would use the altered value as that IS the value on the models stat line

Yes, it also applies to individuals within the mob. Otherwise a weirdboy in a mob would not be able to increase his LD to 10, which we know he can do because of the Ork FAQ:

Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to more
than 10 by the Mob Rule? (p31)
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a maximum
of 10.

Well, that's an interesting unanimous point of view - and certainly much more conformable than the views here a few years ago (which isn't that surprising).

Do note the point in my OP how an opponent may see the Weirdboy FAQ has a "sole exclusion", that only the weirdboy can use mob rule in this way - so the argument won't always work, and I don't have complete faith that Judges will see the same way either.

That aside, the argument that units do not have stats themselves, but units therein do, should be enough to argue the point... hopefully. Just wish I had something more... clear cut, rather than talking around the rule mechanics, which the stubborn often just react to by being... well... stubborn.

Oddly enough, I posted this exact thread (with some changes in the first post to make it fitting) on Warseer at the exact same time as I created this one here, and it's not even materialized yet - mods still need to green light it, if it hasn't been discarded. Not exactly the place one goes for a quick answer to a rules question, I gather.
Anyway, thanks for your input!

It straight up says orks may replace their ld with the size of the mob. Every individual ork can do this. There is no other way to interpret it.

nkelsch wrote:It straight up says orks may replace their ld with the size of the mob. Every individual ork can do this. There is no other way to interpret it.

You don't need to convince me here, I'm the Ork player! I'm just looking for a way to express this in a simple and clear cut manner to an eldar opponent who is very resistant to the idea that individual orks can do it, with the sole exception of the weirdboy

Edit: Finally up on Warseer, though interestingly there's some contention - although one or two of the arguments are a tad odd...

nkelsch wrote:It straight up says orks may replace their ld with the size of the mob. Every individual ork can do this. There is no other way to interpret it.

This. "Orks may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value"
A nob is an ork. So the nob may always choose to substitute the number of orks in his mob for his normal leadership value.

Can't get much clearer than that.