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So I am currently trying to find a good niche for the Blood Angels army. It is an assaulty army but I fancy using the tactical marines, something different for a Blood Angels player? I also want to put some emphasis on the armor or dreadnoughts (which are good).

My problem is I am just having issues tightening down a list that seems well rounded.

Tonight I tested with the following:
HQ:
Sanquinor

Troop 1:
10 Tactical
Melta
Multi-melta
Combi-melta
Rhino (extra armor hunter killer)


Troop 2:
10 Tactical
Melta
Missile Launcher
Combi-melta
Rhino (extra armor hunter killer)

Elite 1:
Furioso
Blood Talons
Magna Grapple
Melta
Flamer
Drop Pod

Elite 2:
Furioso
Blood Talons
Magna Grapple
Melta
Flamer
Drop Pod

Elite 3:
Librarian Furioso
Shield of Sanguinius
Wings of Sanguinius
Drop Pod

I started Sanguinor, the Librarian Dreadnought (did not deploy him in his drop pod), and the two Rhinos on the field.

The idea is to move the Rhinos in, use the Dreadnought for the 5+ cover when smoke is gone. Sanguinor buffs one of the two sgts, he himself is pretty descent, and the librarian can handle close combat on average units.

The 3 drop pods gives me options for turn one deep strikes, a) both Furiosos or b) one Furioso and one empty.

The list did 'ok', though it was not maxed to 1500 (was more of a test atm) but it just did not seem to perform well (though my rolls were terrible as well).

I feel that only having 1 Furioso begs for meltas, if I have 2, well, you'd have to take down 2.

The problem I ran into was it was a capture game and I only had 2 scoring units, my opponent had 2 or 3 and was playing Sisters of Battle. Due to his army of choice he is packing a load of meltas and multi-meltas.

Game was somewhat close until then end, where I got rolled over, but I just cannot find that niche I wanna run with this army yet.

I play codex marines as well and I seem to do better with them, though my army with them is not very assaulty. I'd like to work on a build for BA that is fun, effective, and not the standard "spam assault marines, priests, and massive amounts of melee." Might be hard with a 'melee' heavy army/codex, but they have lots of fast tank options and stuff I wanna work with as well as the dreads. Any input, links to tactics or test lists, etc would be awesome.

I feel that you are running more of a codex space marine, as you are missing out the benefit of having assault marines being troops. I also think you are missing the benefit of using Sanguinary Priests to grant feel no pain and furious charge to units within 6 inches of the model. Sanquinor is really costly for what he offers and feel that he gives almost nothing to tactical squads, since tactical squads do not do well in close combat. IMO, I prefer two librarian dreads in a drop pod and a Sanguinary Priest or two with assault marines over tactical squads and one librarian dread and two furioso dreads.

I was like you once, trying to get Tactical squads to work. As much as I like them, at 1500, you CAN NOT RUN THEM. If you don't want to play a melee army, sorry, but don't play BA. BA are an assault army weather you like it or not. Honestly, you list is not well rounded at all. You have 3 dreadnoughts who are dropping unsupported, two rhinos, who will easily be blown out, and an expensive HQ, not to mention you have little to no board control. Honestly, I think you would have much better luck with a SM army, as you seem to want to take the BA book but not to take anything the BA really has to offer.

The only help I can really offer here is to scrape the list and return to the drawing board. You have spent WAAAAYYY too many points on almost everything.

Happygrunt wrote:I was like you once, trying to get Tactical squads to work. As much as I like them, at 1500, you CAN NOT RUN THEM. If you don't want to play a melee army, sorry, but don't play BA. BA are an assault army weather you like it or not. Honestly, you list is not well rounded at all. You have 3 dreadnoughts who are dropping unsupported, two rhinos, who will easily be blown out, and an expensive HQ, not to mention you have little to no board control. Honestly, I think you would have much better luck with a SM army, as you seem to want to take the BA book but not to take anything the BA really has to offer.

The only help I can really offer here is to scrape the list and return to the drawing board. You have spent WAAAAYYY too many points on almost everything.

In my defense, I'd not say the rhinos would be 'easily' destroyed. Whilst their armor stinks I do have a 4+ cover save for a turn a a 5+ for the turns after. This is not much but at least it is some form of 'support.'

I can agree on Sanguinor but not who to test out next to see what works well.

I am looking at a list that looks something like this:

Troop 1:
3 Assault Marines
1 Melta Gun
1 Power Weapon/PF
Razorback with weapon of choice


Troop 2:
3 Assault Marines
1 Melta Gun
1 Power Weapon/PF
Razorback with weapon of choice

Elite:
Sanguinary Priest
Sanguinary Priest

As a baseline 2 troop choices for the army the Razorbacks would allow me to have some type of ranged fire support with a scoring unit (capture control type of games, 66% of the time anyways) and adding the priests gives them staying power should they have a need to engage in combat or are engaged by the enemy.

Thinking of running Mephiston with a 3rd Assault Squad and 1 priest with a jump pack. Still tinkering with the idea of other things for the army.

A 5+ cover save IF you are in range and IF you get the power off.

Also, not sure how you have 3 assault marines when they come in squads of 5...

Honestly, BA have some good GENERIC HQ's. The Librarian and the Reclusiarch are both good HQ options that won't obliterate the bank points wise. Look into them.

And Mephy dose not have an invul save or independent character. Just an FYI.

BA also have access to great tanks that are fast vehicles

Happygrunt wrote:A 5+ cover save IF you are in range and IF you get the power off.

Also, not sure how you have 3 assault marines when they come in squads of 5...

And Mephy dose not have an invul save or independent character. Just an FYI.

They could have been thinking of the DC, they have the min 3 troops per squad option...

Agen wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:A 5+ cover save IF you are in range and IF you get the power off.

Also, not sure how you have 3 assault marines when they come in squads of 5...

And Mephy dose not have an invul save or independent character. Just an FYI.

They could have been thinking of the DC, they have the min 3 troops per squad option...

I believe it is just that the way that he typed it out was a bit confusing.

OP meant the following:
3 Assault Marines
1 *Assault Marine with* Meltagun
1 *Assault Marine Sgt with* Powerfist
*All added together equals 5 Assault Marines*

We are more accustomed to the following format:
5 Assault Marines: 1 Meltagun, Powerfist

Jstncloud wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:I was like you once, trying to get Tactical squads to work. As much as I like them, at 1500, you CAN NOT RUN THEM. If you don't want to play a melee army, sorry, but don't play BA. BA are an assault army weather you like it or not. Honestly, you list is not well rounded at all. You have 3 dreadnoughts who are dropping unsupported, two rhinos, who will easily be blown out, and an expensive HQ, not to mention you have little to no board control. Honestly, I think you would have much better luck with a SM army, as you seem to want to take the BA book but not to take anything the BA really has to offer.

The only help I can really offer here is to scrape the list and return to the drawing board. You have spent WAAAAYYY too many points on almost everything.

In my defense, I'd not say the rhinos would be 'easily' destroyed. Whilst their armor stinks I do have a 4+ cover save for a turn a a 5+ for the turns after. This is not much but at least it is some form of 'support.'

I can agree on Sanguinor but not who to test out next to see what works well.

I am looking at a list that looks something like this:

Troop 1:
3 Assault Marines
1 Melta Gun
1 Power Weapon/PF
Razorback with weapon of choice


Troop 2:
3 Assault Marines
1 Melta Gun
1 Power Weapon/PF
Razorback with weapon of choice

Elite:
Sanguinary Priest
Sanguinary Priest

As a baseline 2 troop choices for the army the Razorbacks would allow me to have some type of ranged fire support with a scoring unit (capture control type of games, 66% of the time anyways) and adding the priests gives them staying power should they have a need to engage in combat or are engaged by the enemy.

Thinking of running Mephiston with a 3rd Assault Squad and 1 priest with a jump pack. Still tinkering with the idea of other things for the army.

Two small AM units backed up by 2 Priests. That's a bit too much.

If you want to focus on armor, try something like this:

HQ: Librarian 100
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
HS: Auto/Las Predator 135
HS: Auto/Las Predator 135
HS: Auto/Las Predator 135

Total: 1500

No assaulting here.

MrEconomics wrote:If you want to focus on armor, try something like this:

HQ: Librarian 100
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Las/Plas Razorback 165
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Las/Plas Razorback 160
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
FA: Baal Predator 115
HS: Auto/Las Predator 135
HS: Auto/Las Predator 135
HS: Auto/Las Predator 135

Total: 1500

No assaulting here.

This definitely looks like something I could work with, though I have 3 vindicators rather than Predators in my army. I do however have access to 3 Baals

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

Agen wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:A 5+ cover save IF you are in range and IF you get the power off.

Also, not sure how you have 3 assault marines when they come in squads of 5...

And Mephy dose not have an invul save or independent character. Just an FYI.

They could have been thinking of the DC, they have the min 3 troops per squad option...

I believe it is just that the way that he typed it out was a bit confusing.

OP meant the following:
3 Assault Marines
1 *Assault Marine with* Meltagun
1 *Assault Marine Sgt with* Powerfist
*All added together equals 5 Assault Marines*

We are more accustomed to the following format:
5 Assault Marines: 1 Meltagun, Powerfist

You would be correct, sorry for the confusion there.

I mostly agree with Mr. Economics - his list is fairly solid. I did well at the Bay Area Open using the following:

Mephiston
5 Assault Marines in Razorback
5 Assault Marines in Razorback
TLAC Baal Predator
Flamestorm Baal Predator
Autolas Predator
Autolas Predator
Autolas Predator
Talon Furioso in Drop pod
Talon Furioso in Drop pod
10 Assault Marines w/2 meltagun + pfist in Drop pod

Granted it is 1750 but it is built along the same lines as what I think you are looking for. Contrary to what some think, BA are no longer really a top tier assault army. I find their fast mechanised forces to be their primary strength.

In the list above, I include Mephiston as insurance against assault. A standard librarian is not bad but if you have no melee threats there is nothing to stop your enemy from just bumrushing you and then you are being forced to spend your razorback squads to turn them back instead of hiding and claiming objectives. The Razorback squads are naked because I never want them on the table; their fragility is a liability for something I want holding an objective at the end of the game. Baal Predators w/o sponsons are fantastic for an aggressive element, autolas predators are almost always MVPs. Furiosos in pods are used as shock troops, hopefully using melta to slag something on the turn they drop in and then make a nuisance out of themselves. Being in a drop pod allows you to put pressure on the enemy backfield and play vertically; if you can draw off an opposing unit or force your opponent into making mistakes then the dreads are paying for themselves regardless of if they kill something or not. Same for the 10 man squad in pod, ideally they come in late in the game with twin melta and pfist to clean up. The list works as a whole by providing multiple AV13 and reducing your vulnerability to small arms fire - if you are going to play mech BA you have to build your list efficiently and emphasize your strengths.

One thing I will stress above all is to make the list you like and then practice with it. Being good with *your* army is worth way more than anecdotal evidence about what units suck and which ones are must-have.

Dogstar34 wrote:I mostly agree with Mr. Economics - his list is fairly solid. I did well at the Bay Area Open using the following:

Mephiston
5 Assault Marines in Razorback
5 Assault Marines in Razorback
TLAC Baal Predator
Flamestorm Baal Predator
Autolas Predator
Autolas Predator
Autolas Predator
Talon Furioso in Drop pod
Talon Furioso in Drop pod
10 Assault Marines w/2 meltagun + pfist in Drop pod

Granted it is 1750 but it is built along the same lines as what I think you are looking for. Contrary to what some think, BA are no longer really a top tier assault army. I find their fast mechanised forces to be their primary strength.

In the list above, I include Mephiston as insurance against assault. A standard librarian is not bad but if you have no melee threats there is nothing to stop your enemy from just bumrushing you and then you are being forced to spend your razorback squads to turn them back instead of hiding and claiming objectives. The Razorback squads are naked because I never want them on the table; their fragility is a liability for something I want holding an objective at the end of the game. Baal Predators w/o sponsons are fantastic for an aggressive element, autolas predators are almost always MVPs. Furiosos in pods are used as shock troops, hopefully using melta to slag something on the turn they drop in and then make a nuisance out of themselves. Being in a drop pod allows you to put pressure on the enemy backfield and play vertically; if you can draw off an opposing unit or force your opponent into making mistakes then the dreads are paying for themselves regardless of if they kill something or not. Same for the 10 man squad in pod, ideally they come in late in the game with twin melta and pfist to clean up. The list works as a whole by providing multiple AV13 and reducing your vulnerability to small arms fire - if you are going to play mech BA you have to build your list efficiently and emphasize your strengths.

One thing I will stress above all is to make the list you like and then practice with it. Being good with *your* army is worth way more than anecdotal evidence about what units suck and which ones are must-have.

Thanks a bunch, my goal is to find something that will allow me to field the units I like, from BA that is in fact their armor and the fast trait they posses, it is crazy how awesome it is to move 12 and fire something.

Another thought I've been having, since I don't fancy much assaulting (though I concede the fact I will have to incorporate it a some point in my build), is still trying to use tacticals. Whilst they are terrible when compared to assault marines for melee I think taking some elements from the assault marine build could make them useful, so here goes (and I'd love the feedback).

First off, I grabbed another squad of assault marines today to help me build a list with, that being said that does not make up for the fact I have 30 tactical marines that could stand to be used.

So here is the idea I had based on the suggestion of Razorbacks with Las/Plas.

Tactical Squad:
10 Marines
-Meltagun or flamer
-Lascannon
-Combi-Melta or PF for Sgt.
-Raxorback Las/plas

Game starts, I could combat squad the marines, 5 (sgt and special weapon), 5 (heavy weapon).

Granted this gives the chance for 2 kill points but it allows for a mobile shooty element that can capture and allows the other half to either a) camp a point and/or b) snipe armor with the Lascannon.

Just an idea, trying to find some use for the marines I currently have in my army so that all portions are viable.

Let me know your thoughts.

The squad you posted costs 285 if you go with a Flamer and Combi-Melta, or 305 if you go Melta and PF. That's almost the cost of two squads of Assault Marines in Las/Plas Razorbacks each with a Meltagun.

If you really want to run a Tactical Squad, this seems like the way to do it, although you might want to save 15 points and take the free Missile Launcher instead.

However, if this is driven by a need to use models you already have, there are other ways to go about it. First, note that you can use Tacs as special weapon carriers in mechanized Assault Squads, or in any Assault Squad if you magnetize the backpacks. You can also use the Sergeant as an ASM Sergeant. If you only have 10 Tactical Marines, you can easily find a home for half of them in this manner, or all 10 if you can get JPs on them and you run 10 man Assault Squads.

In general, Tacs suffer from the fact that Assault Marines spam Razorbacks better and are clearly superior on foot as well. Note that it's generally agreed that Tactical Marines aren't great in C:SM either. C:SM players take them because the only other alternative is Scouts or building a Bike Army.

MrEconomics wrote:The squad you posted costs 285 if you go with a Flamer and Combi-Melta, or 305 if you go Melta and PF. That's almost the cost of two squads of Assault Marines in Las/Plas Razorbacks each with a Meltagun.

If you really want to run a Tactical Squad, this seems like the way to do it, although you might want to save 15 points and take the free Missile Launcher instead.

However, if this is driven by a need to use models you already have, there are other ways to go about it. First, note that you can use Tacs as special weapon carriers in mechanized Assault Squads, or in any Assault Squad if you magnetize the backpacks. You can also use the Sergeant as an ASM Sergeant. If you only have 10 Tactical Marines, you can easily find a home for half of them in this manner, or all 10 if you can get JPs on them and you run 10 man Assault Squads.

In general, Tacs suffer from the fact that Assault Marines spam Razorbacks better and are clearly superior on foot as well. Note that it's generally agreed that Tactical Marines aren't great in C:SM either. C:SM players take them because the only other alternative is Scouts or building a Bike Army.

Good feedback, thanks. I felt that the stuff I posted was about the only effective way to utilize the tacticals. On to the other points you make, I have 2 5 man assault squads (working on magnetizing them). Sgt will have an interchangeable arm (CCW/PF) and the squad will have one melta. I have 2 Razorbacks right now so making the 5 man squads is not a problem, heck if I need too I can run 6 man squads since I had enough bits left over to make 2 extra guys. This however is pretty much the extent of my assault marines right now so I was trying to fill in the rest of my army with what I currently have. I have 2 more rhinos, 3 Baals, 3 Vindicators, 3 Furioso Dreadnoughts, buncha priests and so on. I'd also consider the magnetization of a portion of my tacticals if a) I had more jump packs and b) if they were not toating boltguns. While the group I play in does not care about proxies I'd feel bad running an assault squad with weapons they cannot equip. On the flip side though the 3 tactical sgts and 3 special weapons could work, but I'd be lacking the rest of the marines to fill out the minimum 5 to make the assault squad units.

Good information, thanks a bunch, feel free to comment back.