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GK Techmarine buys Blind Grenades, joins unit of Death Cult Assassins.

Blind grenades are Defensive grenades as per the BRB.

From small BRB p36: "Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault Bonus attacks."

Question: assuming the Techmarine has joined the DCA, how would a unit assaulting the DCA unit be affected if at all?

Any unit assaulting the DCAs while the Techmarine is joined would not get the extra attack when charging.

thank you very much.

Consider the IC rules though:

BRB p. 48 "Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

BRB p. 49 "... however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even though they have joined the unit."

and BRB p. 49 "... independent characters that have joined the unit must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible (otherwise they will not be able to fight)."

From that, and the rules concerning multiple assaults on p. 41, I'd say no. Your techmarine has the defensive grenades as wargear - the squad he's attached to, on the other hand, doesn't. So the blind grenades would only affect the models in base contact (or within 2" of a model that is, and directing attacks at the IC specifically) with the IC.

Just like meltabombs on the sergeant of a squad doesn't automatically give the entire squad meltabombs.

Defensive Grenades are different from Meltabombs.

One model having defensive grenades removes the charge bonus attack.
Each model has to replace his attacks with an equipped grenade - IE meltabombs.

But you still have to pay for the blind grenades, I'm assuming - and the squad itself hasn't taken them. Since ICs can only attack/be attacked by valid units (base to base and within 2"), then it stands to reason that only the IC itself, being equipped with the blind grenades, would get the benefit from them.

RAW seems pretty clear on special rules being applied to squads when an IC joins them, and valid targets in CC with multiple units.

Chesh wrote:But you still have to pay for the blind grenades, I'm assuming - and the squad itself hasn't taken them. Since ICs can only attack/be attacked by valid units (base to base and within 2"), then it stands to reason that only the IC itself, being equipped with the blind grenades, would get the benefit from them.

RAW seems pretty clear on special rules being applied to squads when an IC joins them, and valid targets in CC with multiple units.

There is a vast difference between "attacking" and "assaulting". An IC may only be able to "attack" and "be attacked" by models in base-to-base, but his entire unit was "assaulted" - that is to say, you must be assaulted before you can be attacked. And, before he becomes a separate model for the purposes of assault, he is very much a part of the unit.

All that defensive grenades care about is if my models assaulted your unit and your unit has defensive grenades in it. Since the IC has them, then yes, the unit has defensive grenades. This is spelled out clearly in the Grenades section on page 36:

Defensive Grenades
Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault Bonus attacks.

Don't even bring the IC into your mind - the assaulting unit has lost their Assault Bonus attack before they've even moved into base-to-base, simply by declaring assault against that particular unit.

Models assaulting against units equipped with defensive grenades gain no Assault Bonus attacks.

(emphasis mine)

That to me says individual models, not necessarily the entire unit that's assaulting. The "unit" in question would be the IC, who's equipped with the blind grenades.

It's pretty clear in the assault rules that ICs are counted as separate units as far as assault is concerned, which doesn't conflict with the rules for defensive grenades.

Say for instance you have unit X, the assaulting unit. They're assaulting unit Y, that has independent character Z attached.

Unit X is 6 models strong, unit Y is 5 models strong, and character Z is (obviously) 1 model strong. The assaulting player moves all 6 of their models into base to base contact with units Y and Z, and we'll say for the sake of argument that one assaulting model is in direct base contact with each defending model. So there are 5 models in unit X that are in base to base with unit Y, and one model in base to base with character Z.

The model that's in base to base with character Z would lose their charging bonus attack, but the 5 models that are in base to base with the 5 models in unit Y would still have their charging bonus attack, because only one model from unit X is actually assaulting the unit (character Z) that has the blind grenades.

I wish I could draw diagrams, that'd probably illustrate where I'm coming from a bit better.

Chesh wrote:That to me says individual models, not necessarily the entire unit that's assaulting. The "unit" in question would be the IC, who's equipped with the blind grenades.

He is not separate for the entire assault phase. He's separate for resolving attacks - page 49 - and that's it.

Chesh wrote:

I wish I could draw diagrams, that'd probably illustrate where I'm coming from a bit better.

No, we understand where you're coming from, it is just not correct. If the IC was standing in the back of the unit and couldn't even reach the assault, the opposing models still would've assaulted a unit with defensive grenades.

The first thing you do in assaults is declare your assault. When you declare your assault against the unit with the IC in it, it is still a single unit - the IC is only removed for resolving combat. Therefore, you are assaulting a unit with defensive grenades in it. You've already lost your assault bonus attacks before you've even found out whether or not you're in base with the IC or not.

So there's essentially no difference between models and units then?

Check the diagram under multiple combats at the bottom of p. 41 - in the case there it's marines vs orks and gretchin. The diagram on p. 49 shows exactly what I'm talking about.

5ed assault rules are fething confusing. It breaks down into models, rather than just units. I'm still not seeing where independent characters count as part of the unit being assaulted when assaults are declared. Even if you're going by "defenders react" (BRB p. 34) that's still after assaults are declared and moves are made.

If I'm coming across as stubborn and/or dense, I really don't mean to. I'm picking back up after about a 5-6 year break, and trying to learn all this stuff as best I can... Well, there's a good possibility that I just might be rather dense, actually.

Chesh wrote:So there's essentially no difference between models and units then?

... What? The IC rules on page 49 say that the IC is a separate unit for resolving attacks.
Take a unit of Assault Terminators assaulting this Grey Knight whatever the a Blinding Techmarine.

The Assault Terminators come into contact with the enemy unit.
It's time to determine number of attacks - 2 per model base, +1 for charging that turn.
But wait! Each model is assaulting a unit with defensive grenades! (Because the IC is part of the unit).
So they're down to 2 attacks base.
Now you resolve attacks, and the IC is considered separate.

Page 49 section 'Independent characters & assaults' left column, 2nd graph States "If a unit that has been joined by a character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as a part of the unit."

then later on in the same graph "Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined".

So IC's are normal members of the unit, and if they have defensive grenades the assaulting unit does not gain the bonus attack for assaulting.

Chesh wrote:5ed assault rules are fething confusing. It breaks down into models, rather than just units. I'm still not seeing where independent characters count as part of the unit being assaulted when assaults are declared.

Pg49 under Independent Characters and Assaults:

"If a unit that has been joined by a character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as it is part of the unit. When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a seperate single-model unit...even though they have joined the unit. ... Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onwards)."

I've bolded the important bits. Although this paragraph deals with assaulting a unit, it does contain sentences that state that an IC is part of the unit until attacks are resolved (which means he is part of the unit when assaulting/being assaulted), and resumes being part of the unit once attacks have been resolved.

What's confusing me is this:

Very next paragraph, p. 49: When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characters that have joined the unit must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible (otherwise they will not be able to fight)

Also, that diagram at the top right of that page. It seems contradictory as all hell, and combined with the bit on "Special Rules" on p. 48, and defensive grenades being rather vague in combination with the unit vs model thing...

AAAAAAAAAARRRGH. *Head A Splode* - never expected this to be quite so damnably confuzzling.

Edit to add:

Avatar 720, I was looking for it specifically in "units being assaulted" - the paragraph directly following the one you quoted.

Chesh wrote:What's confusing me is this:

Very next paragraph, p. 49: When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, independent characters that have joined the unit must move before other friendly models in order to get into base contact with an enemy if at all possible (otherwise they will not be able to fight)

Also, that diagram at the top right of that page. It seems contradictory as all hell, and combined with the bit on "Special Rules" on p. 48, and defensive grenades being rather vague in combination with the unit vs model thing...

AAAAAAAAAARRRGH. *Head A Splode*

You're still thinking that the IC is not a member of the unit for the entire assault phase - that's wrong.
He's a separate unit while resolving attacks - that's the 10 initiative steps. Any other time and they're one unit.

The "Special Rules" section is just that - for special rules. Grenades are wargear, not special rules.

So then when do grenades get factored into assaults? Frag grenades get factored in whenever you're assaulting into cover on the initiative steps, but defensive grenades take away the 1A bonus for charging. Wouldn't that be applied during attack allocation, then?

They should just make all grenades in a 'dex available to all units for 1pt per model (other than "free" grenades that are already included in the cost, and meltabombs because those aren't even grenades to begin with).

Chesh wrote:So then when do grenades get factored into assaults? Frag grenades get factored in whenever you're assaulting into cover on the initiative steps, but defensive grenades take away the 1A bonus for charging. Wouldn't that be applied during attack allocation, then?

No - they're both applied before you even start the Initiative steps - they must be.

They should just make all grenades in a 'dex available to all units for 1pt per model (other than "free" grenades that are already included in the cost, and meltabombs because those aren't even grenades to begin with).

For balance reasons they don't. I'd love to grab frag grenades for all of my Nids, but I can't.

Chesh wrote:Edit to add:

Avatar 720, I was looking for it specifically in "units being assaulted" - the paragraph directly following the one you quoted.

It makes no difference. The paragraph about units being assaulted does not detail how they fight like how a unit assaulting does, does that mean that units being assaulted cannot attack?

What the paragraph covers doesn't matter, because it references the character being part of the unit, and does not say that it is solely for when the unit assaults.

I meant in that codex. So all space marines would have access to frag/krak, for instance. All tau would get access to photon grenades, etc.

Otherwise I'd absolutely LOVE to stick photon grenades on things like dev squads or other back-line units.

Chesh wrote:I meant in that codex. So all space marines would have access to frag/krak, for instance. All tau would get access to photon grenades, etc.

There are some Nids with access to Frag Grenades (Carnifex via Frag Spines) and Defensive Grenades (anything within 6" of a Venomthrope) but overall - Nids hate charging into terrain.

I'm not at all familiar with the 'nid codex. I have CSM, C:BA, and Tau handy, and Necrons somewhere.

Carnifexes (Frag Spines), and Lictors/Deathleaper (Flesh Hooks). Just about everything in Nids could take Flesh Hooks, but they changed it to Lictors only.

We're getting a bit off topic here, but I'm not entirely sure that genetic mutations are actual "grenades".

I'm talking about things that are "grenades". Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Photon grenades, Haywire grenades, etc... things you pull the pin on, throw, and pray like hell your arm is good that day.

Chesh wrote:We're getting a bit off topic here, but I'm not entirely sure that genetic mutations are actual "grenades".

I'm talking about things that are "grenades". Frag grenades, Krak grenades, Photon grenades, Haywire grenades, etc... things you pull the pin on, throw, and pray like hell your arm is good that day.

Yes, it's slightly off topic, sorry. Last off topic for me:

They act as grenades. Frag Spines count as being equipped with Frag Grenades. Flesh Hooks allows the model to always strike in Initiative order. Spore Cloud makes all units within 6" count as having defensive grenades.