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Hey, still a complete noob at this game, but going to revamp my list here, though I think it still really struggles to work at 1500 (grumble grumble 1750-2000 is what this game should be played at)

This comes out to 1500 on the dot, but utilizes the kampfgruppe rule so I'll just break down the army into the platoons.

The biggest weakness is the lack of smoke and weak arty support, but I want something to punch the crap out of Russian infantry so I'm going Grille over Wespe or Artillery Battery (though I'm not against using the 15cm sFH18 Howitzers)

Kampfgruppe

CiC - Panzerfaust, x1 kfz 251/1 (will probably be bouncing back and forth between this group and the mortar wagens if they need to move).
2iC - Panzerknacker, x1 kfz 251/1
x1 Panzerschreck - x1 kfz 251/1
x2 HMG - x1 kfz 251/1 (from Heavy Platoon)
x4 MG - x2 kfz 251/1
x1 SMG - x1 kfz 251/1
x2 kfz 251/9 (from Heavy Platoon. Alternatively these could go chill out in the short platoons)

10 Infantry Teams and 9(or 7) half-tracks (7 MG and 2 Cannon). Will be used for offensive ability.

Comabat Platoons
x1 SMG - kfz 251/1
x4 MG - x2 kfz 251/1
(Could add a 7.5cm cannon kfz for numbers)

5 infantry teams and 3(or 4) half-tracks (3 MG and possibly a 7.5cm Cannon)

x1 SMG - kfz 251/1
x4 MG - x2 kfz 251/1
(Could add a 7.5cm cannon kfz for numbers)

The above two short platoons would be for defense/harassment+flanking. Can send transports to the rear and dig in if needed.

x2 kfz 251/2 - observer team+kubelwagen (if the mortars need to move, the CiC can come baby-sit them)

Weapons Platoon
x3 kfz 10/5 (self-defense AA is crap so I wanted something more reliable...shame I don't have the points to put armor on them)

Divisional Support
x4 Marder III M (paper thin armor, but are relatively cheap and hit hard)
x3 kfz 234/2 (Recce is also great to have and the pumas can do some damage on top of that)
x2 Grille K - x1 SMG, x1 kfz 251/1, observer + motorcycle (2-gun batteries aren't good and they are fragile, but the 2+ firepower is awesome)

2 Gun battery is a pain, 2+ is great but you have to re-roll hits. So the issue becomes hitting anything. Only good for smoking things, and it's a waste of them.

Marders are okay, yes they hit hard but they are extremely fragile. I would recommend STuG's? A bit of a paper tiger that will be neutralized by a Recce formation hitting them.

On top of this 7.5cm Cannon is expensive and not very survivable so I would avoid them and try and grab more STuG's or something or possible a nice battery of 10.5cm or the German uber cheap nebelwerfers.

Change it around, as a Panzer Grenadier company you have a lot of HMG's and some mortars which is good. You need more AT in the form of PAK40's or 88's or something. Recce PUMA's are pretty good, with STuG's and PAK40's you can throw out some fairly good AT fire never forget the new gun saves in GTG is 3+.

Why aren't You taking 3.7cm PaK 36 on Combat Platoon HQ SPVs (251/10)? That's a free anti-tank upgrade and You can take two of these.

Btw, mwnciboo, he can't take nevelwerfers in v3 GPG list - for some reason they simply aren't there... The OP would have to switch to Grey Wolf instead of v3.

Damn need to buy the v3 hardback books. I'll get back in my box now.

mwnciboo wrote:Damn need to buy the v3 hardback books. I'll get back in my box now.

Or join Easyarmy.com

I've got Easy Army (alot of them) i need to buy the V3 hardback.

EDIT - Are HETZERS an option in the New book for a Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Company?

EDIT - FETH!! - v3 is free on EASY ARMY - Go Greg - I could kiss you...

mwnciboo wrote: EDIT - FETH!! - v3 is free on EASY ARMY - Go Greg - I could kiss you...

Ah, I see now. Cause, I was wondering if You are so hardcore that need that in paper, despite the fact that it is officially available for free

Lol.

It's Official I am a Bell-end. I have been using the same books (earth & steel and also North Africa) but not checking the other available books assuming that because I hadn't paid for them I wouldn't get them....

Still need to pay for Grey Wolf, as I would like to field a Company of Hetzers.

mwnciboo wrote:It's Official I am a Bell-end. I have been using the same books (earth & steel and also North Africa) but not checking the other available books assuming that because I hadn't paid for them I wouldn't get them....

Still need to pay for Grey Wolf, as I would like to field a Company of Hetzers.

I have it there. What exactly do You want to know? You don't get Hetzers for Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Kompanie. Only for Pioneers, Panzers and Panzergrenadiers.

The Hetzer Kompaine is pretty snazzy. I was originally going to run with 3 x Marder IIIms for my 5. SS, but switched them out in favour of the Hetzers. I like the look of them.

As to the OP, I would suggest switching out the Marders, for either some StuGs or Panzer IVs.

I am not a fan of the heavy pls, but they seem they would work well in this list. I rather like the SP Guns, as they give this a more mech. infantry feel to the list.

Oh yeah back OT...

A friend of mine has run 4 x Brummbar and at 280 points thats a steal. They are Bunker busters, and slow, so make sure you put them where the enemy is going to come to you. e.g Covering the objective they are after. e.g Position them in enfilade.

If they go for the objective you massacre them with Bunker busters, if they go for the unit instead you it buys you more time to reinforce the objective.

But to compliment them I would take Panzer IV's, a full platoon of 5 or at a push 4. You can never go wrong with them, or with STuG's they are all round reliable.

Your Infantry looks amazingly dangerous, you have a fair amount of good quality infantry. For AA and AT look at the 2 xFlak 36's with extra crew. Stick them behind your infantry line and use the huge range to give an AA Bubble and also a huge AT bubble as these things eat heavy armour. This way you could drop the Armour and take Marders and Puma's and maybe a full platoon of 10/5's with Armour? 10/5's with Armour are good at shooting infantry in the open ROF 4 is no joke.

How about this one for a Radical overhaul? ( It's difficult to cover all bases adequately with Germans at 1500 points, 1750 makes a difference as that extra platoon is AAA or an armoured platoon)

HQ
1 x HQ
2 x Full Platoons (3 sections)
1 x Heavy Platoon (2 x MG42 )
2 x Grille K
5 x Panzer IV
1 x Puma Section
3 x 10/5's with Armour

1485 points...

Bit of arty, lots of Mech, lots of Infantry, bit of AAA (with Armour!).

@Cainthehunter if I want to Hetz to the max which list is best? Pioneers? I want to field 2 Platoons of them if possible and how much does a platoon of 4 cost in points? (Off to buy them this weekend!).

Lots of good advice above. Pumas are fun but expensive. I'd trim off the Grilles, Marders and the 251/9s. I'd replace them with some Wespes (or towed 105s), Jagpanzer IVs and 251/2s.

To deal with infantry, unless it's dug in, you need hits and the Grille just will not provide. Brummbars are quite effective against infantry hordes in V3. If you don't mind them being useless if you change lists StuH42s are rather potent vs. infantry and capable against armour (unlike the Brumms).

mwnciboo's list is better, it still has a weak artillery section and has an odd number of platoons though. I've just spent ten minutes trying to rewrite it with an even number of platoons and failed. Damn those V3 forces lists are limited.

mwnciboo wrote: @Cainthehunter if I want to Hetz to the max which list is best? Pioneers? I want to field 2 Platoons of them if possible and how much does a platoon of 4 cost in points? (Off to buy them this weekend!).

It is 340 in all lists. And You can only take two Platoons if You use Ersatz Pionierkompanie list and then they are Veteran Tank-hunters. In other lists, including paratroopers, it is either one platoon of Tank-hunters or a choice between Veteran Tank-hunters and Tank-hunters.

@Cainthehunter, ooooohhhh the Veteran Tank Hunters sounds nice, it will be a fun list rather than competitive. Thanks for that, really appreciate the input (off to buy some FiB Hetzers 2 Packs should give me 8 hetzers)

George Spiggott wrote:Lots of good advice above. Pumas are fun but expensive. I'd trim off the Grilles, Marders and the 251/9s. I'd replace them with some Wespes (or towed 105s), Jagpanzer IVs and 251/2s.

To deal with infantry, unless it's dug in, you need hits and the Grille just will not provide. Brummbars are quite effective against infantry hordes in V3. If you don't mind them being useless if you change lists StuH42s are rather potent vs. infantry and capable against armour (unlike the Brumms).

mwnciboo's list is better, it still has a weak artillery section and has an odd number of platoons though. I've just spent ten minutes trying to rewrite it with an even number of platoons and failed. Damn those V3 forces lists are limited.

I'm curious I still cannot see what the Jagdpanzer IV has over the STuG. I've got them in my Lehr List and love them, but the problem with that list is that I cannot have STuG's so it's Jagdpanzer's or nothing. If I could have STuG's I would over the Jagdpanzer IV's. They are exactly the same stats? Or am I missing something?

I did struggle with the 1500 above, which Nungunz even posted in the original post. Yeah I cannot work in Artillery without it getting to the 300 point mark which is crippling in 1500 points, the lack of cheap Nebelwerfers is odd? Did they not have them towards the back end of the war? This sounds like a Big P question?

I just got the Grey Wolf stuff from easyarmy and took a look at the lists there. I've kinda got the impression that the V3 list for G.P.G has a lot more AT options (Grey Wolf only really has Flak 8.8s to deal with big scary tanks) while the Grey Wolf book trades away that flexibility for much better arty support (and slightly cheaper AA...by 5 points).

The way I see G.P.G working well is abusing the crap out of the Kampfgruppe rules (7 teams and 4 half-tracks seems rather lack-luster especially when the half-tracks are easy to kill.....and y'know compared to russian hordes or U.S. lists with a ton of attachments) and the stormtrooper rules. Granted it does generally leave two short platoons, but it does bump up your platoon count if you're at an odd number and puts a very effective offensive brick in the army.

Ugh, 1500 seems so limiting. Why do people play at this level? It really isn't balanced.

mwnciboo wrote:I'm curious I still cannot see what the Jagdpanzer IV has over the STuG. I've got them in my Lehr List and love them, but the problem with that list is that I cannot have STuG's so it's Jagdpanzer's or nothing. If I could have STuG's I would over the Jagdpanzer IV's. They are exactly the same stats? Or am I missing something?

I had a brainfart and forgot that StuGs were available in the list. Jagpanzer IVs, StuG IIIGs and StuGIVs are all identical in game terms.

Nungunz wrote:The way I see G.P.G working well is abusing the crap out of the Kampfgruppe rules (7 teams and 4 half-tracks seems rather lack-luster especially when the half-tracks are easy to kill.....and y'know compared to russian hordes or U.S. lists with a ton of attachments) and the stormtrooper rules. Granted it does generally leave two short platoons, but it does bump up your platoon count if you're at an odd number and puts a very effective offensive brick in the army.

Ugh, 1500 seems so limiting. Why do people play at this level? It really isn't balanced.

If you want bigger platoons just attach HMGs from the Heavy Platoon, just by doing that you can make your two compulsory Platoons 9 bases strong. Alternatively take a look at the Lehr list, their Combat platoons can take Panzershreck teams in addition to their seven MG teams to up their platoons size. They can attach HMGs and/or 8CM mortars from their Heavy Platoon in addition to this.

IMO Panzerwerfer42s are the best infanty killing artillery available to German lists. Most people I know play 1,750-2,000 points. I've been playing 1,500 since V3 came out just to reduce game length while I'm relearning the rules.

Nungunz wrote:Ugh, 1500 seems so limiting. Why do people play at this level? It really isn't balanced.

Actually, although a lot of people do play Late War at 1750, as well as other points levels, 1500 has been a popular points level to play at since FOW started. It's actually balanced just fine. You just have to come to grips with the fact that at 1500 points, you don't get to have everything you want. It's hard to squeeze in infantry, armor, anti-tank, artillery, recon, and air or AA at 1500. You basically have to play to your strengths as much as possible, and sacrifice the thing you want least. The good news is, at 1500 points, your opponent will likely be lacking something as well.

So in summary, my advice is to focus on your strengths and not try to squeeze in every single type of support option. You don't have that luxury at 1500 points, especially with armored Panzergrenadiers. If anything, I would recommend taking three full strength Panzergrenadier platoons if you can squeeze it in. Unless you really like them, you could drop the Grillen and take mortars for smoke instead. I'm also not sure that HMGs are worth it with armored Panzergrenadiers who are already MG teams and have the added firepower of their half-tracks. That's something else you could drop to make room for a third Panzergrenadier platoon.

@mwnciboo - Why not use the Hetzer army list from Grey Wolf?

@Hordini - I've always played 1750 LW, so trying to put together a 1500pt list using Grey Wolf was iffy.

Gepanzerte Panzergrenadierkomapine
*Kompaine HQ*
- CiC Panzerfaust/ SMG & 2ic Panzerfaust/ SMG teams

*Combat Platoons*
Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon
- HQ section w/ 3 x Panzergrenadier squads
- Upgrade Sd Kfz 251/1 HT to a Sd Kfz 1/10 (3.7cm) HT @ no cost.
Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon
- HQ section w/ 3 x Panzergrenadier squads
- Upgrade Sd Kfz 251/1 HT to a Sd Kfz 1/10 (3.7cm) HT @ no cost.
Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon
- HQ section w/ 3 x Panzergrenadier squads
- Upgrade Sd Kfz 251/1 HT to a Sd Kfz 1/10 (3.7cm) HT @ no cost

*Weapons Platoons*
Gepanzerte Mortar Platoon
- HQ section w/ 3 x mortar sections
Panzergrenadier Anti-Aircraft gun Platoon
- 3 x Armd Sd KfZ 10/5 (2cm)

*Divisonal Support Platoons*
Panzer Platoon
- 3 x StuG IV
Light panzerspah Platoon
- 1 x Panzerspah Patrol. Replace all Sd Kfz 222 (2cm) w/ Sd Kfz 221 (2.8cm) @ no cost.

combat engineer wrote:@mwnciboo - Why not use the Hetzer army list from Grey Wolf? .

Just to advice -the Panzerjaeger Company from Grey Wolf is not yet available on easysarmy. But You can actually see the points in BF video about GreyWolf book.

I can lend him a hand with points if he's interested.

Cheers guys, I'll buy the book next weekend as it's pay day.